Originally Posted By reddon "Some people have said they think it is "right" somehow that TDS was built in this manner. No. That's wrong. What is right is building a park that the public as a whole enjoys, not building a park that a few people think is good because they have some internally created concept of what is correct or not. What is right is doing that, and doing that in a manner that allows for it to stay in business financially. If the place can't stay afloat financially, it will close and cease to exist. Why this is not understood by some folks, I simply can not fathom." So how's you vacation, jonvn? I do see what you're coming from and appreciate that you try to reason instead of just trying to do shouting match. But I do not agree that you think all the critics of DCA, TDS fan or someone asking for more themes/details is not thinking about reality or accept the reality as you define it. First of all, people's tastes are different. I like EPCOT, and specifically, the ride-lacking World Showcase. Am I the minority? I don't know, maybe. But you can't tell me that I am wrong about voicing that opinion and I don’t have to accept your view. Does every sentence have to be preceded by IMO or IMHO? And let's use the analogy of movies. American Pie 2 is making big bucks. It's definitely very good business investment. But do you want every movie to be like that? I know I don't. I also saw some critically acclaimed movies and think they are the director’s ego trip. But I want Disney to always try to shoot higher. Go for something like “Shakespeare in Love”, “Crouching Tiger” that are both good movies that makes money too. I think it can be done. I know the dreaded IOA, DLP “example”. I’ll put aside the debate and just say OK, so they are failure. But I don’t think Disney should just say that people don’t appreciate about theme or innovation and stop trying. I will end this by again using a quote from Jim Hill’s Muppet series: "What exactly was so crucial about Disney locking up Jim's services well into the next millennium? From having worked closely with Henson during his tenure as head of children's programming at ABC, Eisner knew that Henson was an originator. A guy who didn't build on the ideas of others, but -- rather -- came up with brash new concepts all on his own. A man who -- like Walt Disney -- thought outside of the box. A guy who saw opportunities where others just saw adversity."
Originally Posted By jonvn The vacation is fine. "First of all, people's tastes are different." That's right, they are different. So if you like DCA, there is nothing wrong with you. You are not a shill, or dumb, or an apologist.
Originally Posted By woody >>What is right is doing that, and doing that in a manner that allows for it to stay in business financially. If the place can't stay afloat financially, it will close and cease to exist. I never assumed any Disney Park will fail. Even DLP and IOA are a successes because the true definition of failure is when it closes. Wake up!!! They aren't closing. They spent very little dough on DCA. That's a given, but the major sacrifice is both the theme itself AND the theming. I have repeated stated both problems, but somehow the latter is emphasized more because it helps your argument. I believe DCA will succeed. That's a given. The Disney name is still too strong to pass up. The quality of the theming is still better than Knott's or Universal's. Oh well. I truly believe Disney missed an opportunity that OLC took even if TDS was 25 to 50% smaller than its current size. Something went wrong with DCA and I'm sure they'll fix it, but you can't fix lots of design errors. Unless you do a complete raze (highly unlikely), DCA's flaws will be here to stay. Sure, DCA isn't bad, but it isn't good. It's an okay trip. Not memorable, not a big disappointment; however Limo and Steps in Time might be.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I never assumed any Disney Park will fail." DLP never failed, but it came within a few days of doing so. But it basically failed. If it were not for a Saudi prince, the place would have gone under.
Originally Posted By WeirdOne Marc, Just Asking.... But, do you happen to have any pictures at all of the drained lake of Aquatopia? I would really like to see how the vehicles moved. Also, not to start the age old debate again, but can you tell me, do you feel any real bumps, jerks, and overall movement on JttCotE? Even if so, is it due to the track or can you actually see the vehicle moved around by pneumatic or electric pumps? Ok, just asking. Thanks! The WeirdOne ~_^
Originally Posted By Marc -DL Traveler <a href="http://www.geocities.com/dl_traveler/mvc-492f.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/dl_tr aveler/mvc-492f.jpg</a> The vehicles are moved off the course in this picture, to allow for it to be "rubberized". Yes, the JttCotE vehicles bump and change their attitude, but in a less pronounced manner than Indy. I've been repeatedly told that they are EMVs. I've looked for changes in the track elevation which could account for the movement. I haven't seen any, but the course is not easy to see. I have also been informed on several occasions that the ride system's closest relative is, far and away, Test Track. Marc p.s. (not directed at WeirdOne) Say what you will, but I feel much of discussion in this forum has left this world and is now taking place in cyberspace. It's good timing. "Why bother" is pretty easy to say right now. Matane!
Originally Posted By Marc -DL Traveler Hmm... Don't want to stick you with a bad link (should work... maybe a geocities thing?) - <a href="http://www.tokyoresort.com/mvc-492f.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.tokyoresort.com/mvc -492f.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By WeirdOne Thanks Marc. I'm assuming the white concrete surface is the "rubberized" track. So, the Aquatopia vehicles actually travel on wheels that run on the "rubberized" track? That looks so cool. And not to get too question-y, but, as for Mermaid Lagoon, do you have any idea how that "under the sea" water effect is done? Another WeirdOne question there. Thanks! The WeirdOne ~_^ P.S.-Now I see why you don't want to be invited to a Japanese wedding. P.P.S.-That is a lot of yen for one wedding. I think I'll stick to....THE MIRACOSTA WEDDINGS...~_^
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I have just poured thru this entire thread for the last hour or so. Great, passionate posts here. Great debates too courtesy of jonvn and Marc (kudos to both of you). I am not as eloquent or clear in my posts here (because English is not my 1st language) as you all are, but i find it fascinating to read every thing related to my beloved TDR. I agree with most pros and cons here but i feel i must add something that has been mentioned briefly but somewhat underdebated by most (except Marc who knows this as much as i do): What makes TDS and TDL for that matter real Disney theme park winners is NOT, the economy, the theming, the money behind it, etc. What makes TDR a winning resort is first and foremost the PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE AND THE GUESTS WHO VISIT TDR. The Japanese deserve all the credit in the world for making this place the gem that it is. The japanese CM's know the meaning of "Disney Standards" while the japanese guests know the meaning of respect. While DL, WDW and DLP are drowning in evergrowing piles of trash , compliments of disrespectful guests and some uncaring cast members (DLP is the worst offender here, it was extremely dirty and deteriorated on Aug. 20th when i visited), the cast and guests of TDR take pride in "their" park, not Disney's, THEIRS. That's what makes TDR special in every way for me.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I have just poured thru this entire thread for the last hour or so. Great, passionate posts here. Great debates too courtesy of jonvn and Marc (kudos to both of you). I am not as eloquent or clear in my posts here (because English is not my 1st language) as you all are, but i find it fascinating to read every thing related to my beloved TDR. I agree with most pros and cons here but i feel i must add something that has been mentioned briefly but somewhat underdebated by most (except Marc who knows this as much as i do): What makes TDS and TDL for that matter real Disney theme park winners is NOT, the economy, the theming, the money behind it, etc. What makes TDR a winning resort is first and foremost the PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE AND THE GUESTS WHO VISIT TDR. The Japanese deserve all the credit in the world for making this place the gem that it is. The japanese CM's know the meaning of "Disney Standards" while the japanese guests know the meaning of respect. While DL, WDW and DLP are drowning in evergrowing piles of trash , compliments of disrespectful guests and some uncaring cast members (DLP is the worst offender here, it was extremely dirty and deteriorated on Aug. 20th when i visited), the cast and guests of TDR take pride in "their" park, not Disney's, THEIRS. That's what makes TDR special in every way for me.
Originally Posted By jonvn I would never have known English was not your first language if you did not say so.
Originally Posted By woody >>DLP never failed, but it came within a few days of doing so. But it basically failed. If it were not for a Saudi prince, the place would have gone under. Jim Hill had a series on this. The true story is more complicated. Eisner exploited a weakness in the project financing. Whether the park will really close is open to interpretation. Essentially, Eisner won a chess match in demanding a financial restructuring. The Saudi Prince was a bottom feeder. He saw an opportunity and took it. It could easily be an other big investor.
Originally Posted By damon63 >While DL, WDW and DLP are drowning in evergrowing piles of trash , compliments of disrespectful guests and some uncaring cast members..< I don't know what's going on at DLP or WDW these days but I can assure you that Disneyland is NOT "drowning in evergrowing piles of trash". I won't comment on the guests but the cast members I encountered at Disneyland and DCA were exceptional.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN It goes to show you that even at Disney's kingdoms, it does take a prince to save the day... ;-D
Originally Posted By TDLFAN Well Damon63, that wasn' entirely the case the day i visied DL last May when i found DL to be in not so clean condition. I spotted a few custodial CM's walking past very apparent trash discarded on the floor. I would hope by your post that maybe that was a very isolated day-problem at DL. WDW and DLP i vist quite more often and frankly the parks could be better maintained, but that is another topic to discuss somewhere else.
Originally Posted By WDW RR <<WDW and DLP i vist quite more often and frankly the parks could be better maintained, >> I was at WDW last week. I must have seen custodial CMs everywhere and they never walked pass a piece of trash. I thought the place was as clean as it could be. How is DLR more maintained than WDW?
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>How is DLP more maintained than WDW?<< Actually DLP is far less maintained than WDW. (See my trip report in the Paris section) I am glad you visited MK on a good day where you saw many custodial cm's around. Now for every one custodial CM you see at the MK, multiply it by 15 and THAT's how many custodials they have working in a single area of TDL at any given time. You can count them in just ONE SINGLE LOOK!!! Those who have never been to TDR can not understand this. In the meantime i think the western audience at DL, WDW and DLP have become so used to seeing the current conditions at these park that they don't see there is room for improvement there. You know??.. the most often you see something, the less aparent and more common it becomes. MK is still an ok park with it's cleanliness but take the time to really look next time you go, and you may be unpleasantly surprised. But again, if you are not familiar with the standards of the earlier days then it'll all go over your head.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> TDLFAN: English is not my 1st language << I've read many of your posts over the months and never thought English was anything but your native language. Your LP handle includes "TDL" (meaning Tokyo Disneyland, I'm sure). May I ask what your native language and country are? (If this message is too nosey -- I will admit it's off-topic -- you can pass it by. I'm curious mainly because it's been my hope that more people whose primary language is not English would start writing messages here, especially after DisneySea opens.)
Originally Posted By damon63 >Well Damon63, that wasn' entirely the case the day i visied DL last May when i found DL to be in not so clean condition.< Well, perhaps that was the case, I don't know. I do know that it's not drowning in trash, as you put it. The latest TDS photos of Port Discovery are interesting to me. The decorations and theming throughout this this area are pretty much duplicate to Discovery Bay at DLP, which surprised me a bit. Too bad DL didn't get this kind of elaborate overlay for Tomorrowland '98, I think it could have been used more effectively there. The tide pools under the Railway are a pretty cool little detail.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN damon63, i agree "drowning in trash" is a term that not quite applies to WDW. That's the harsh kind of criticism i reserve for DLP, however, WDW and MK in particular, are not as clean as they used to be 20 years ago when i was a CM there. There is room for improvements in cleanliness at WDW, same applies to DL. DLP, well that place is hopeless...it's a tough crowd over there... If i appear harsh when it comes to Disney cleanliness is because i see how they clean at TDL and would only hope that the same kind of feverish attention was given to the parks in the US and Paris (specially Paris). I mean.. there is no excuse for handwriting and stuck chewing gum on the walls of some major attractions at WDW; that is more suited for Universal Orlando's King Kong where the walls are so filthy i get sick looking at them. I still blame some guests 50% for those problems, but Disney should take a more aggressive stance on it. I thinkit's time to start ejecting guests who so rudely deface the parks. Disneywatcher, my first language is spanish, but don't get me wrong. I have lived in Orlando for 20 years this month. I do speak english rather fluently but still have a strong accent some might find fun to listen to. However i still find it hard to sit down and put some elaborate thoughts into written words as i still have to translate from spanish to english in my head at the expense of loosing my logic and idea as i go along. That's why i said i wished i was as eloquent as jonvn or Marc on their posts. ..And no, i don't feel you are noisy at all for asking.
