Originally Posted By arstogas >>><< but as far as I can see, park is crucial when it comes to attracting visitors from outside the U.S. I have talked to quite a number of people in Germany, and every single one agreed that he/she would never fly all the way to Florida if there was no EPCOT>>> WOW ... interesting perspective. I would be curious to learn more about the "why" behind their feelings.<<< Part of the appeal of EPCOT Center (still not giving up) is the happy-warm-feeling of a global community enjoying its mutual company. I don't know anywhere else on Earth that celebrates that as an institution that the general public can enjoy in such a rounded, spectacular way. I'd think that's a part of it. Plus, the Biergarten serves excellent sausages.
Originally Posted By experiment627_ger >>><< but as far as I can see, park is crucial when it comes to attracting visitors from outside the U.S. I have talked to quite a number of people in Germany, and every single one agreed that he/she would never fly all the way to Florida if there was no EPCOT>>> WOW ... interesting perspective. I would be curious to learn more about the "why" behind their feelings.<<< Well... being from Germany, I have to disagree with this statement. I think the reason why people fly all the way over to Florida to visit WDW is not because of Epcot, but because Epcot is one of FOUR parks... My family visited WDW a couple of years ago and we all were totally impressed with the place. But asked, which park they would give a miss next time, they all answer "Epcot"... because besides walking around and looking at pretty things, there isn't (or wasn't) much to do there... experiment627
Originally Posted By Otownguy So WHAT attracion had low ridership AND low guest satisfactin ratings?? Horizons or WoM? I got confused.
Originally Posted By Kevin Rcheesit, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m sorry to hear things have turned so sour for you. I’m not out to change your mind at all but do want to better understand your points. Here are my thoughts on the 7 areas you’ve listed: 1 - <<Money was spent to build hotels instead of to keep the parks alive and fresh.>> I’d venture to say that the hotels are their own revenue center and I assume they make money on their own. I doubt that any money that was going to be spent on parks had to be diverted to hotels. In fact, I would maybe assume the opposite that the hotels make their own profit that could then – theoretically – be diverted to the parks. 2 - <<Everything now just reeks of pulling every last dollar out of the visitors wallet.>> <<the obvious greed of todays management>> <<the $5.00 beers, the $25.00 tee shirts, the $250.00 per night rooms, the $20.00 per peson meals>> These 3 areas all point to you believing things are overpriced. This has been talked about repeatedly. In my opinion, things aren’t all that expensive when compared to other entertainment options – theatre tickets that cost $75-125, beers at a ballgame that cost $6, cokes and popcorn at a movie that cost $10. Generally, in business you charge what the market will bare. I’m not sure they are over that point. Plus, they have many different price points for their hotels and restaurants to cater to those will all sorts of budgets. 3 - <<I've never seen WDW employees less friendly and less interested in making things magic.>> There are many, many great cast members. However, given the number of cast, this is an area that needs work, I’d share my concerns with Disney in a letter if you feel strongly. 4 - <<I was told the Annual Pass discount would save me 40% on hotel rates. Now I find that those discounts are probably not going to be offered anymore.>> I don’t believe this is the case. Often these aren’t released until a couple months before but I don’t anticipate this going away. They like to have a feel for capacity before offering these. 5 - <<she curtly stated that maybe I would rather talk to Central Reservation>> I’ve never had this problem but would share your concerns with Disney in a letter if you think that Disney Travel Company was being too slick. 6 - <<rode Mission Space and were terribly nausiated, to the point of praying that it would end before they threw up>> My opinion is that Disney MUST have advanced thrill rides to be relevant to the masses. They don’t need a lot of them and should stick to their core family attractions but they can’t ignore the thrill market completely. I’d steer clear of these if you can’t handle them. There are only a few of the dozens of attractions that would fit this category. 7 - <<Each park needs a few new E ticket rides>> Generally, an e-ticket is going to cost at least $50 million and probably more. You build new attractions over time. Just dumping almost a billion dollars (3x4x$75 million = $900 million) into the parks would be fantastic but not very likely.
Originally Posted By Epcot82Guy Both had low ridership. WoM and Horizons were both at the bottom of the list in the mid-late 90s. The way I understand it, the higher production costs and the fact GM was willing to pitch in (since Horizons had no sponsor) caused it to go first. Horizons was meant to stay open later than it did, I believe. The problem was the structural integrity issue, so the attraction was closed to prevent a potential safety hazard before the decision of renovation or replacement had been made.
Originally Posted By SJHYM Just to be clear about something. Horizons was not delayed a year but had always planned to open a year after the opening of EPCOT. It was part of the contract with GE at the time. Horizons was an excellent attraction that just didnt age well. By 1993 it already looked dated. But I always found it to be entertaining and fun to ride.
Originally Posted By CMM1 I found the article interesting from the standpoint that it seemed to talk more about the "balance" of the WDW theme parks than it did about Mission:Space itself. Things I found particularly interesting: (1) WDW's MK still most heavily attended park - of course! most rides for younger kids and biggest stable of Disney "franchise" attractions - sure, you've been on them in Anaheim, Tokyo and/or Paris, but you want to try the WDW version too (2) Tenuous status of Disney Studios - with Univeral just around the corner, this park needs to keep moving lest they fall behind "the other guys up I-95" - ToT established a unique attraction, RnR Coaster and Fantasmic provide compelling reasons for Disney "Parkhoppers" to stay. Still, the spectre of IOA and USF down the road demands that things move forward in this park far faster and better than in any other Disney park (3) DAK - most unique park of the area? Is DAK really that different from Busch Gardens? No, but it's closer to Orlando and thus as long as Disney keeps things hopping in DAK, they have a compelling 4th gate to keep weeklong visitors in the Disney realm. Obviously, Expedition:Everest will try to help DAK achieve a "full day" attraction list, making it more difficult for Disney onsite guests to stray from the Disney enclave (4)Epcot - it is interesting to see how Epcot is perhaps perceived by Disney as being the home of the local APs, but with the choice of dining opportunities and the "Worlds Fair" atmosphere (as well as proximity to more entertainment and dining experiences at Boarkwalk just around the corner), Epcot occupies a unique place in the Disney park pantheon. In essence, with the monorail connection to MK, is Epcot simply not the "adult" portion of the MK? So where does Mission:Space fit in? Is it meant to be thrill ride that appeals to the younger guest set? Is it meant to be for all ages in terms of appealing to the yearn to experience a space flight? It's hard to say by the signals being sent out by Disney. It will be interesting to see if Mission:Space becomes a true Disney favorite or simply becomes a "throwup ride" for which only the young or strong-stomached yearn for - if it is the former, then will it lead a revival at Epcot; if it is the latter, will it be enough to make Epcot more desirable for the younger set or will it simply be fodder for a quick morning trip before those thrill-seekers pound off for repeated rides on ToT or RnR Coaster, or worse yet, pile into the car for a trip to Universal for a ride on Spiderman, the Mummy, the Incredible Hulk, Jurassic Park or Back to the Future
Originally Posted By SJHYM I dont see Space as anything near starting a revival of EPCOT. I dont think Disney has the stomach to pay for such a revival, doesnt have the vision to make EPCOT the premier park it once was, is looking for SPACE to give guests reasons to stay at EPCOT by pairing the 2 thrill rides. But I dont see this as the beginning of major changes at EPCOT.
Originally Posted By rcheesit I just wanted to say that I appreciate very much the comments I received. Lest any of you out there think that I have not sent WDW letters expressing my concern, I did that long ago, in some detail and got a rather generic form letter in response. It was as though they hadn't really read my letter. Some missed my point. Disney vacation clubs, cruise ships, Caribbean islands, NUMEROUS elaborate hotels (which became a source of tremendous income that (several years ago)generated record profits that were never put into the parks in any great level, movie studios, ABC network, ESPN and many more examples were all purchased to create an empire and the parks were, for the most part, finding cheap, slipshot attractions like the re-do of Imagination and the low cost live entertainment debacles in place of class A attractions that Walt Disney had on the drawing board. They are obviously overextended by EuroDisney's failure to understand their clientel and building other parks in other parts of the world. WDW has suffered. Each new groundbreaking costs millions of borrowed money and (like when the swan and dolphin were sold) teh parks have undeniably suffered. You hear it from so many people. YOu have to be pretty gullible to not hear what so many people are saying about their Disney experience, of late. I couldn't believe how many times I heard it at the Animal Kingdom and Car. Beach pools during my last visit. It was striking. Many in my circle of friends were/are Disney faithful that find recent experiences disheartening. I've been to the NCAA basketball tournament, a Reds game and a Tiger game all recently and spent no more than $3.25 for a beer. YOU can get a Tiger t shirt for 15.00 and it's not just because they suck. I heard so many guests sit at the CB pool bar and complain about how prices had gotten absolutely rediculous. Many had their own coolers of refreshments. Look how many people bring food into the paks. Have you been to the Beergarden or any of the EPCOT eateries lately. We were there during the busy season and had the places virtually to ourselves. Near property restaurants are springing up all over and are so packed it takes an hour to get a table. If you think that Disney regulars are not fed up talk to some of the merchants on Main street USA. Their business is one third of what it was five years ago. We were shocked they dared mention this to us. I was told by several cast members that the attitude is very bleak among workers because of the pay freezes and lay offs. They certainly didn't feel to be part of anything magic. A friend of mine had his son do a summer work program at WDW and he worked 60 hours a week, was paid for 40 and had to pay Disney extremely unfair amounts for his housing. All for the experience of a Disney apprenticeship. Seeing things from the inside ruined his sparkling image of Disney. There are some great cast members. We met and enjoyed some. We, of course still found things about Disney that were wonderful. It is undeniable that there were more dull and listless cast members than I have ever encountered on any of my trips to Disney. As for the AP discounts, my sources are the two finest Disney information web sights on the net. In an open letter written last Friday one of them put forth a very good "insiders" view of what was happening with Central Reservations and discounts and the proofs they offered are there to see. Just tonight I called Disney reservations and got the Disney travel club people and had an attitude when I asked to speak to central reservations. As usual, the CRO helper was very good. Look around you the next time you're at Disney. Tell me the employees are the same, the eateries are as packed and that the prices are "reasonable." You'de be the first one I've heard make that case. You are welcome to your opinion, but I expect something very special from Disney. If I got that, the price would be reasonable.
Originally Posted By SJHYM "A friend of mine had his son do a summer work program at WDW and he worked 60 hours a week, was paid for 40 and had to pay Disney extremely unfair amounts for his housing. All for the experience of a Disney apprenticeship. Seeing things from the inside ruined his sparkling image of Disney." Just to add my 2 cents to this. It is against the law and Disney's policy to work an hourly CM 60 hours and only pay them 40. However if the person is a salaried person then they do not receive overtime for over a 40 hour work week. As for the apartments that the college program and apprentices live in...they are expensive. We have discussed this before though and Disney lets everyone know the cost of living in Disney housing before they get here. So there should be no surprises at their rent when it comes out of their checks. And if in fact Disney did not tell them the cost of the rent before they signed their contracts, the person who signs that contract should have asked that question before committing themselves to the job.
Originally Posted By Epcot82Guy I will be the first to say that the CP program needs to be changed. I personally think it is one of the largest problems at WDW right now. This is not meant to offend any CPers (I'm one myself), but they bring in tons of people, do not screen them well, do not train them well, and then expect the magic to remain. I spoke to 2 CPers out of dozens that enjoyed their job. The rest did it as a resume builder only, and had not intention of doing anything more than bare minimum, and current management standards are pretty low. I think if they were taught a bit more about the history, expectations, etc. of WDW of yore, it might change some attitudes. Create a long profile to determine interests, so a CPer obsessed with the Classic Disney films works in Fantasyland whenever possible. Gardeners or biologists end up in Seas or the Land. THen have them spend a week park hopping and seeing attractions and things, interacting with guests and cast members, then take a Disney exam that tests how much you know. I know for me, seeing how much better a time a guest can have b/c of something I did can help compensate for lower wages and expensive housing. A child's smile is pretty darn pricey! ;-) If WDW's guest service starts increasing again, having a CP semester on a resume becomes much more lucrative. The bar just needs to be set higher.
Originally Posted By Dr Albert Falls To those who complain that more money is spent on hotels than parks, remember--- hotels generate more revenue than parks. And without hotel rooms to fill, Disney would not have built 3 more parks, 2 water parks, and all the other resort activities (If WDW had only the two original hotels, do you really think WDW would be a better place?) There's no excuse for unpleasant CM's. But as for their morale- remember, EVERY industry is hurting these days! The economy is down, and employers are cutting back-even Disney. Also-- with such a large property, Disney can no longer hire "the best of the best" like they could when there was only 1 or 2 parks. They have a lot of positions to fill. And the allure of "working for the Mouse" isn't the same as it was 20 years ago. No job is. As for the price-- it's only too expensive when people stop buying it. If you owned a lemonade stand and people were willing to pay $10 a glass, would you turn down the profit? Why should Disney? Plus, as someone said, WDW is still reasonable when compared to the price of movies, theatre, or any other entertainment (or competing parks down the street). And what other entertainment form generates the wonderful memories that WDW does? Heck, look at these message boards! Something that so many people devote so much time to MUST be valuable! (You don't find a lot of Grand Canyon or even Sea World message boards!)
Originally Posted By steve_solovitz FYI -- Beer at the Metrodome in Minneapolis -- Watching the Minnesota Twins for crying out loud on a plastic grass field under a plastic roof -- are $5.50. In a plastic cup. I think it's 3.2 beer, too. The only place I've seen beer at a ballpark under $5 lately has been at minor league games.
Originally Posted By MouseBear Salutations Lee and Lindsay, Thanks for the wonderful pictures. ) I think your ideas for EPCOT are excellent, especially concerning the World Showcase. Hope someone at Disney reading. ) Lee
Originally Posted By treelo rcheesit- Just wanted to throw my two cents in. When you call Central Reservations, are you using a 1-800 number? I worked for Walt Disney Travel for Disneyland a couple of years ago. We would receive calls for Central Reservations thru our 800 number which was specifically for vacation packages. CR did not have an 800 number, and guests would automatically go for the free call without making sure they were calling the right place. As far as your treatment by WDT, I can only say that it was frustrating for me to receive these calls. I realized that the guest had been on hold for up to 20 minutes waiting to speak to someone, and I had to be the one who told them that I could not personally help them, and that I had to transfer them over to CR, where they had to start the whole waiting process over again. I suggest that to avoid this, double check you are calling the right place. You may even try contacting the front desk of your resort and they can transfer you to the right call center. As far as the food prices, I was in agreement with you up to a month ago. I recently visited Knott's Berry Farm and was appalled at not only the terribly expensive prices ($11.00 for a hamburger, fries, and drink), but also the lack of quality in these products. It really showed me how Disney really does surpass others in terms of quality, especially.
Originally Posted By billgrif I absolutely loved the "old" Epcot with Horizons, WOM, etc. Horizons was definitely NOT a blood curdling thrill ride, but that was not the philosophy of Epcot. I really felt a connection between Epcot and my faint recollections of the 1964 World's Fair. Both offered uplifting, positive views of the future. What happened to Epcot is atypical of the "dumbing-down" of America. Rather than update WOM which detailed a significant part of our past and future, it gets trashed and replaced by a slot car set on steroids. I think Universe of Energy benefited GREATLY by the Ellen update. I really enjoy the new version over the old. Horizons - well that is really a sore spot with me. I loved that attraction. It could have been given an overhaul/update that would have given it a new lease on life. As for the World Showcase - adding a thrill ride here and there would not be all that bad. Put a Matterhorn in Germany or a reworked DLP Space Mountain in Japan as Mt Fuji. Redo Mexico to make it less a wierd travelog and more a story like Pirates. Need a parade? Bring the Disney Carnivale parade over from Tokyo or DLP's ImagiNations. I really have to wonder what would have happened if Disney had opened the park in VA? Given the current mentality of Imagineering on the cheap and tossing cartoon characters around as "cure-all", I can only imagine the fiasco it would have become. I just get so frustrated when I see a Park with so much potential wasting away...
Originally Posted By Wolfjones >>><< but as far as I can see, the park is crucial when it comes to attracting visitors from outside the U.S. I have talked to quite a number of people in Germany, and every single one agreed that he/she would never fly all the way to Florida if there was no EPCOT>>> WOW ... interesting perspective. I would be curious to learn more about the "why" behind their feelings.<<< Part of the appeal of EPCOT Center (still not giving up) is the happy-warm-feeling of a global community enjoying its mutual company. I don't know anywhere else on Earth that celebrates that as an institution that the general public can enjoy in such a rounded, spectacular way. I'd think that's a part of it>>> Obsolutely. Plus, it´s simply a one-of-a-kind park. If Europeans simply want to visit a theme park, there´s plenty of choice on their own continent. If they want to visit a Disney park, there´s Disneyland Paris, far superior to its Florida counterpart. But where on the planet could you find another park like EPCOT? I cannot speak for everybody, but for me, EPCOT has always been the heart and soul of WDW, something really unique. Management should strenghten the differences between EPCOT and other parks - attractions like Illuminations of Earth and Tapestry of Nations, that´s the way to go -- not building thrill rides. There simply must be room for a different kind of park in WDW, and I really hope there will always be - with todays management, *everything* is possible, even the unthinkable... wolfjones
Originally Posted By leemac Thanks for all the kind comments! I really enjoyed compiling this article. I thought I should just highlight a couple of points in relation to some of the comments. The hotels are a totally different revenue center. Each expansion has to be totally justified and does not take potential capital investment from the parks. We simply would not have the WDW we have today without Eisner forcing WDW to build new hotels from the Grand Floridian in 1988 onwards. These are a huge part of WDW business and there is no way that there would be four theme parks without them. They keep people on property. On the AP front, I've spoken with the Snr VP for the program and was categorically told that the discounts will not be removed any time soon. They are an important way to fill rooms, especially at shorter notice (usually less than 3 months). You should call the Passholder Hotline for the latest discount codes. I always find it interesting how many LP visitors love the old style EPCOT, with World of Motion, Horizons et al. Sadly though, the average guest did not agree with you. Horizons was a horrific cost drain by the time it was earmarked for removal. Guests had never warmed to it and the maintenance and CM costs were wasted on a pavilion that was practically deserted throughout the day. I personally think M:S fits in perfectly to EPCOT and there was always the plan to implement a NASA-inspired attraction, even before Opening Day in 1982. It just took 21 years to arrive! According to some of my sources, the announcement for Soarin' will be on October 9, but construction will begin next month. The entrance will almost certainly be through the Land rather than being a separate entity.
Originally Posted By leemac Forgot something else! I must admit that I've noticed a fall in CM ability over the past ten years or so. However, EPCOT has always had amazing CMs, mainly due to the international college program that is still so popular. The problem is just the Orlando employment market. There are plenty of others competing for very few applicants. If it was not for the summer college kids flying down to work in the area over the summer, I wonder if the parks would be able to even operate. As WDW has got bigger, they simply can't recruit the quality staff they need. DLR has a much easier job as they need fewer CMs and have a much larger market in which to find them. Vegas has exactly the same problem, as it has expanded too quickly for the local labor market.
