Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I feel it deserved that nomination, and I don't see it as scummy at all.>> You're missing my point. What's scummy is the process. I'm not debating the merits of whether or not TS3 deserved a Best Picture nomination. That's beside the point. The fact that an animated feature can be nominated for BOTH is the problem. It should be either/or. The whole purpose of creating the Best Animated Feature category was to honor films in a particular genre -- animation -- which had never received a Best Picture nomination, save for Beauty and the Beast. When the Best Picture category was restricted to five films, it made complete sense to create that category for animated films. But now that Best Picture has grown to 10 films, three to five films must be added to the list as "filler." (One could effectively argue seven of the 10 films rightfully deserve Best Picture nominations, but I've always believed five was adequate and just.) The double nomination started with UP, and now continues with TS3. You can bet your bottom dollar that at least one of those 10 Best Picture films, moving forward, is going to be an animated feature. And because those animated features are part of the "filler" to pump up the nominee list, they will have zero chance of actually winning against live action films created by a predominately live action industry. So... any film that's nominated for both Best Animated Feature and Best Picture will, by default, win for Best Animated Feature because of the Best Picture nomination. And since most films getting Best Picture nominations are often "campaigned" for by the studios which produced them, the smaller independent studios turning out terrific films get left in the dust, because they lack the deep pockets to run those full page "For Your Consideration" ads in the trades. That's why I'm pissed with the double nomination. It just about guarantees the big studio cartoons will always win the Animated Feature Oscar.
Originally Posted By basil fan I never comment on these discussions because you all are so knolwedgeable about the movie industry. But, as a complete outsider, allow me to say that the whole nomination process, as I understand it, is utterly stupid, IMHO. If a group is going to choose the best movie, actor, etc., of the year to honor, then they ought to just pick 'em. Sure it's just their opinion when all is said and done, but what does the production company submitting or not submitting their property have to do with it? I liked the Oscars better when I didn't understand the process. Disney Villains <a href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/disney/villain.html" target="_blank">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/...ain.html</a>
Originally Posted By JeffG >> "The fact that an animated feature can be nominated for BOTH is the problem. It should be either/or. " << No other feature film category is treated that way (it rarely happens, but foreign language films and documentaries are eligible), so I don't see why animation should be. Every feature film regardless of film style should be eligible for "Best Picture", or else that name for the category becomes even more meaningless than it already is. Of course, the mainstream, big studio films are the most likely to win. The Academy Awards are really nothing more than very public industry trade awards. I agree that it would be nice if smaller films had a better chance, but it isn't too likely to happen. Even in the Best Animated Film category, there has yet to be a winner that wasn't a major studio release (unless you count "Spirited Away", which was released in the US by Disney, but not very widely). Whether it got a Best Picture nomination or not, there really was little chance that anything other than Toy Story 3 would win the Oscar this year. Had the category been around to honor either or both of the previous films, one of the other nominees might have had a chance. With this being the first opportunity to recognize the franchise, the film has been a lock for the award from the moment it became apparent that the film wasn't going to be a box-office or critical disappointment. -Jeff
Originally Posted By JeffG Postscript: Yes, I know I'm going to feel silly about the above post if TS3 ends up losing. -Jeff
Originally Posted By FerretAfros <----Still confused why all the other Best "Whatever" categories are genres, while the animated ones are all clumped together by medium. Shouldn't they also be split into their respective fields? How does Avatar count as live action, when Alvin and the Chipmunks (and almost Yogi Bear) count as animated? And the Academy thinks they're doing what they can to stay interesting to the mainstream audience...
Originally Posted By mawnck >>How does Avatar count as live action, when Alvin and the Chipmunks (and almost Yogi Bear) count as animated?<< Avatar doesn't count as animation for two reasons: (1) It wasn't submitted as such by James "it's NOT animation, it's not it's not it's not" Cameron, and (2) It probably doesn't have animated characters on screen 75% of the time (IE same problem as Yogi Bear). Also, as of this year the rules have changed a bit as to what constitutes animation. It wasn't really tested this year, but motion capture might not be eligible anymore. Sorry, Zemeckis. I'm a bit skeptical about Cats and Dogs II myself, which was on the eligible list this year much to my surprise. I think the Academy's timekeeper was having trouble telling the difference between the animated animals, the footage of real animals, the on-set puppet animation, and the combinations thereof. Which was a testament to the quality of the effects work in that movie, if not the movie itself.
Originally Posted By mawnck OUCH! <a href="http://web.me.com/floydnorman/MrFun2/Gag_Wall.html#3" target="_blank">http://web.me.com/floydnorman/...l.html#3</a> (Link good as of this posting, but they do change)
Originally Posted By mawnck This probably doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, given the circumstances, but the Annie award for Best animated feature goes to .... How to Train Your Dragon. FWIW, best short was Day and Night, and Alice in Wonderland got an award for character animation in a live-action feature. Congrats to the winners and nominees. Dang, I'd've gone if I'd known Danica McKellar would be presenting. Complete list here: <a href="http://www.annieawards.org/consideration.html" target="_blank">http://www.annieawards.org/con...ion.html</a> For those who tuned in late, Disney refused to participate in the Annies this year, which meant that all the categories that rely on submissions - which is most of them - were conspicuously Disney/PIXAR-less. Dragon beating TS3 certainly isn't going to repair any bridges.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Does that mean that the Short category does not rely on nominations? Either way, I'm still not sure I understand the hype surrounding Dragon. I enjoyed it for my 90 minutes, but I didn't really come away from it with anything, and I didn't feel like I ever need to see it again. Fun? Yes. Better than some of Disney's stuff? Yep. Great? Not so much.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Does that mean that the Short category does not rely on nominations?<< It does not rely on *submissions.* Neither does Best Feature (both Tangled and TS3 were nominated) and a couple of other major categories. The personal achievement awards require submissions to the nominating committee to be considered, since it's difficult to tell who is doing what otherwise. Without any submissions from Disney, the nominations this year were almost comically skewed toward Dreamworks, making the Annies something of a farce, and not much they could do about it. When you're giving awards in a field dominated by two companies, and one of them takes its ball and goes home ...
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Why did Disney refuse to participate?<< Long story. And this is something of an outsider's version of it, so if anyone wants to chime in with corrections, have at it: Disney has been grousing about the rules for a few years now. They didn't like it that non-professionals could vote for the awards, they didn't like it that Dreamworks was buying voting memberships for ALL their employees (note: there's nothing stopping Disney from doing the same), and they REALLY didn't like it when Kung Fu Panda swept the awards when it was up against Wall-E in 2007. ASIFA changed the voting eligibility this year to include only approved animation production personnel (which means I'm out), but then Disney demanded that an "advisory committee" of major Hollywood studio personnel be formed to "suggest" future Annie rule changes. ASIFA apparently said no, and that was that. In Kung Fu Panda's defense, these were ANIMATION pros and fans doing the voting, and their tastes don't run exactly along the lines of the general public's. Also, the majority of the awards in recent years have indeed gone to PIXAR movies, not that there was a lot of stiff competition until recently. At the same time, there's also no doubt that the Dreamworks folks voted for KFP with great enthusiasm, since they were justly proud that they had finally made a movie that was clearly up to the PIXAR standard. There's also the little matter of the cost to promote your movie to the ASIFA voters, who had come to expect getting showered with DVDs, CDs (UP soundtrack!) and assorted other promotional items in December and January. Disney saved a pretty good chunk of money by not participating this year. As usual, it's the animators who get the worst of it, since the winners didn't get to compete with the best of the best at Disney/PIXAR, and vice versa.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 Hmmm...that sure makes Disney look like the spoiled child. I don't think they ever seem to get the concept that no one, and no company, is infallible to the public. They may not want to burn so much good will over such nonsense. As for Train your Dragon, I think it was a great film. And it was a little different. Sometimes the formula gets old. And let's face it, Disney these days ONLY does the formula. And frankly, TS3 wasn't all that. Good enough, sure. But it's still milking the same old characters and story. Maybe animation folks aren't impressed with that brand of 'creativity.'
Originally Posted By basil fan >>ASIFA voters, who had come to expect getting showered with DVDs, CDs (UP soundtrack!) Excuse me, are you saying there was an Up soundtrack made as a promo for voters?
Originally Posted By JeffG >> "Excuse me, are you saying there was an Up soundtrack made as a promo for voters?" << Yes, there are awards promo CDs of the score floating around, but they are difficult to come by and likely to be very expensive if you do find one. From what I've heard, the content is the same as the downloadable album. I don't know if the CDs were true lossless sound or just a direct transfer of the download album. -Jeff
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Excuse me, are you saying there was an Up soundtrack made as a promo for voters?<< Yes. I kept telling youse guys you needed to join, but does anybody ever listen to me? Nooooooooo! (But not much sense in doing it now if you're General Public ... Disney's no longer sending out "for your consideration" stuff to ASIFA members, and as a non-pro, there's nothing for you to considerate anymore anyway. We still got a few DVDs from other studios this year, but I kind of doubt that's going to continue.)
Originally Posted By mawnck <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Pixar-Promo-UP-CD-SCORE-Soundtrack-Michael-Giacchino-/170596568589" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Pixar-Prom...96568589</a>
Originally Posted By JeffG Hmm. Looking at that track listing, it does appear that the promo CD is an expanded program. -Jeff
Originally Posted By mapleservo Finally got the chance to see "The Illusionist" last night.What a beautiful film! I'd personally give it the vote for best animated film. I really enjoyed HtTYD, and TS3 might be the perfect film. But the Illusionist was a bit of a wonder to watch in it's subtlety and detail. And while the plot wasn't particularly clever, it's definitely not one I've seen before in this medium. I dunno. Maybe it just boils down to "different is good". It ALMOST makes me think Walt screwed everything up when he added sound to cartoons.
