Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Who are you talking about? I have read the post a couple of times and there's a lot of "thems" and theys" and I'm not 100% sure who exactly you mean with that statement. << I'm talking about religious 'true believers' - of any stripe - who are only too proud to declare themselves pious and devout, implying a superiority over others - yet don't feel any responsibility regarding the damages their particular brand of faith inflicts on the rest of us - the 'non-devout'. This isn't restricted to christianity generally, although that is the prevailing faith within US culture. It's having your cake and eating it too - gaining whatever perceived benefits that are derived from belonging to this group, all while disavowing any responsibility for the excesses of this same group that you proudly wear on your sleeve.
Originally Posted By ecdc My last word: People show the quality of their character when they're faced with tough choices, not easy ones. IMO, someone who, well informed and well aware of the Catholic church's behavior over the last thirty years, who says, "Well it's bad, but I didn't do it and the church does a lot of good," has taken the easy way out. Those who stand up and say, "I've been a member my whole life, I love the church and part of me will always love it, but this is beyond the pale, and I'm leaving," they've taken the difficult, but ultimately, correct path. They've shown the quality of their character and the moral backbone such difficult decisions demand. They've made that critical decision to trust their own moral compass rather than rely on an institution to tell them which way it points.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I mean, is there anything that would go too far where we wouldn't have people defending those who stay?<< I'm just trying to separate those who did the crimes or covered them up with those that had no part in it, aside from dropping some money in the basket each week at mass. And from people who want to make real, lasting change from within the church, how it conducts business going forward. One way is that everyone simply leaves the church and it crumbles. But that's awfully unlikely. I have left for good, and other people have as well, but I have no idea what impact, if any, that makes. In some ways, those that hang in there and truly fight to prevent such a thing ever happening again do more, I think you could argue, than those like me who walk out.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Andyll you and I'm beginning to realize that I share a very similar viewpoint as yours. >>I'm wondering how you can be a faithful member of the Roman Catholic Church for 50 years and not be aware of some the scandalous atrocities<< "I think in the same way you can be proud to be an American in spite of the atrocities committed by our forefathers." Okay, fair enough. However, most Americans, myself included, don't have an easy option to disassociate themselves from this country in same way that the individuals you describe can choose to disavow themselves from the Church. I can't just stop being an American the same way that someone can stop practicing Catholicism. "Beyond that, the Crusades and such happened long ago, and are easier to separate from the church of the here and now, rightly or wrongly." How so when the Church continues to knowingly have a hand in corrupt activities?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt BTW, K2M, I'm glad that you've decided to rejoin this discussion. I sincerely appreciate your comments and viewpoint.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<They've made that critical decision to trust their own moral compass rather than rely on an institution to tell them which way it points.>> You, as an ex-Mormon, should understand that the choice for most of these Catholics is either to stay with the Church, or leave religion completely behind. Most Catholics would be incapable of joining another denomination - there just are too many differences, and these other Christian groups just don't feel like real churches. I know there are some that can make that change - but for many it's a choice between no faith, and staying Catholic. That's a pretty tough choice to make.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I can't just stop being an American the same way that someone can stop practicing Catholicism.>> See my above post - it's not really that easy of a choice.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I can't just stop being an American the same way that someone can stop practicing Catholicism.<< I was always a Catholic. Even now, if asked, I probably would think of myself as one even though I don't go to church or contribute or even agree with a lot of their positions, and I am as outraged as anyone over the systematic corruption that has taken place there. But in all honesty, there is an unreasonable but real feeling of guilt I still get pangs of from time to time over all of this and I was never all that devout. So I can imagine how difficult and heartbreaking it would be for someone who WAS devout to decide to leave the church. My mom goes to church more now than she ever did years ago. When my dad became ill and died, the local priest took time to visit him in the hospital, even though my dad was not Catholic, and made time for my mom whenever she needed to talk. From everything I can tell, he seems like a good guy and he was kind to her and seems to uphold all the good things the church is supposed to be about. So, there's that.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Oh I agree plpeters, and I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't be painful, uncomfortable, or frightening for most believers. Like any exercise thinking independently and rejecting learned traditions is not an easy thing to do. In my opinion, the inability to think logically about religious dogma is exactly why so many Americans cannot progress intellectually. The same mentality is what draws people to the likes of Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. The mouthpiece is saying exactly what you want to hear, it fits neatly into what you've always been told is true, and so people just follow along believing everything that they say without questioning.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<In my opinion, the inability to think logically about religious dogma is exactly why so many Americans cannot progress intellectually. The same mentality is what draws people to the likes of Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. The mouthpiece is saying exactly what you want to hear, it fits neatly into what you've always been told is true, and so people just follow along believing everything that they say without questioning.>> This.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The same mentality is what draws people to the likes of Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. The mouthpiece is saying exactly what you want to hear, it fits neatly into what you've always been told is true, and so people just follow along believing everything that they say without questioning.<< I agree, but it's important to note that the same can be said of almost any ideology or tribe, religious or political. It's super easy to see it in others, but very difficult to own up to in ourselves. Right wingers saw people tearing up at Obama events and mocked it roundly, just as many of us mock Glenn Beck or John Boehner. There was a study I linked to here years ago about how people can easily dismiss hypocritical things and even a certain amount of corruption in their own political groups. It happens all the time. It's just an interesting (and confounding) part of the human condition that we can all -- even those absolutely convinced they operate on a just the facts ma'am basis -- make certain allowances.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "My mom goes to church more now than she ever did years ago. When my dad became ill and died, the local priest took time to visit him in the hospital, even though my dad was not Catholic, and made time for my mom whenever she needed to talk. From everything I can tell, he seems like a good guy and he was kind to her and seems to uphold all the good things the church is supposed to be about. So, there's that." I'm having trouble keeping up with this thread today, what with real lift getting in the way. But in the interest of sharing... My family is Catholic. Pretty much everyone in my mom and dads side of the family, with the rare exceptions here and there. My mom was and sort of still is an active participant in the church, yada, yada, yada. When her father died a few years ago, there was a priest in the community, very respected, whom had treated her family so well for years. They all insisted he be the one to "conduct" my grandfather's funeral. They all were so happy with the job he did, and all of the nice things he said about my pap. A few months later, he was arrested and throw in jail for multiple molestation charges. It came out of no where and REALLY hit my mom hard. She had enormous guilt, that this monster was the person they chose to have at my pap's funeral. She still has a hard time dealing with it. Of course she didn't know it at the time, she sure has a lot of what I'd describe as the "catholic guilt" about things like this, even though she couldn't have known and did nothing wrong. I don't know why I really brought this up. I'm not in anyway saying you're not fully aware that looks can be deceiving in cases where people seem to be great. It's just an experience I thought needed to be shared. Not only to point out the flaws that are usually very well hidden in these monsters, but to point out that although my mom and others did nothing wrong, the downfall of their religion they've identified with their whole lives causes them a lot of guilt. Is Catholicism had a middle name it would be guilt. Guilt is an intricate part of this religion. The downfall of the Catholic religion is just one more way guilt has manifested in its participants. My husband always tells me, that despite not being Catholic for 15 years, and being atheist, I still carry a lot of the guilt around with me. Not where God is concerned or anything about my beliefs, but in other areas of my life. It's weird. It's like a plague you can't get out of.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Is Catholicism had a middle name it would be guilt. << LOL, too true. >>It's like a plague you can't get out of.<< LOL, yep. I can relate VERY much.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance See, this whole guilt thing is just one more thing that I see as an unnecessary "evil" of religion.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<My husband always tells me, that despite not being Catholic for 15 years, and being atheist, I still carry a lot of the guilt around with me. Not where God is concerned or anything about my beliefs, but in other areas of my life. It's weird. It's like a plague you can't get out of.>> I'm curious, CC. I have similar problems myself, even though I wasn't raised in a Catholic or strongly religious household. Therapists I've seen in the past, particularly after my divorce when I harbored a TON of guilt about the marriage breaking up, believed it stemmed from the dysfunctional behavior of my parents, who were both children of alcoholics. Do you see your guilt directly stemming from being raised Catholic? Or can some of it tie into dysfunctional family behavior, like alcoholism?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But the other side of that is exactly what I was grousing about in my earlier post - in an indirect way, they're helping to further the agendas of people and churches that hold views and policies directly opposite of their own. > I'm sorry, but I just can't go along with this. It's essentially saying "even if you aren't guilty of this, if other people ostensibly of your macro-religion are, then you are too." I reject that.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance skinner, I had rough patches of childhood with my dad. It wasn't horrible though, and overall I'd say I had a good childhood. Both parents would and did do everything they could for me even if they weren't overall "perfect". I think the catholic religion gave me lots of things to feel guilty about. I listened to Marilyn Manson when I was catholic, god, I felt horrible about it! lol When I cared more about going out with friends that going to church, I'd feel guilty about it, when I secretly would wonder if this whole religion thing was a crock, I'd feel guilty. Getting the courage to research and seek out answers as to religion was something I wanted to continue with was hard for me. I was worried, what if there was a god, what's he going to think that I'm trying to decide whether or not to believe in him? The worse sin imaginable! My mom has always had the same typical responses in feelings of guilt. So I tend to think I got a lot of it from her genetically. I tend to be a bigger believer of genetics playing a larger part in how people turn out. Religion was always there egging me on, giving me tons to feel guilty about, but I think I'd still feel guilty about things had I never had religion in my life. Maybe not quite as much, having had lots of practice, but probably more than average.
Originally Posted By utahjosh CC, I respect your decision to think for yourself and leave the Catholic church. I find it interesting in your story that you said "what if there was a god, what's he going to think that I'm trying to decide whether or not to believe in him? The worse sin imaginable!" To me, trying to decide whether or not to believe in him is critical to having faith, if you were to go that route. Not a sin in the least bit. Just going along with the flow without thinking for yourself isn't what I think God wants us to do.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Well, my faith was lacking. And that made me feel guilty. I couldn't continue on without searching for answers. And, I worried that if I was wrong, and there really was a god, he wouldn't appreciate me trying to decide if he was real or not. I think a lot of religion banks on its followers NOT thinking for themselves, and following it blindly.
