Originally Posted By utahjosh Well I don't blame you at all, and think it is admirable what you've done. /,I couldn't continue on without searching for answers.> That's awesome. < And, I worried that if I was wrong, and there really was a god, he wouldn't appreciate me trying to decide if he was real or not. > This I can see happening, but it's not the way I understand God's attitude. <I think a lot of religion banks on its followers NOT thinking for themselves, and following it blindly.> You might be right, but it's not all of them. Mine for sure. ECDC will probably disagree.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt <I think a lot of religion banks on its followers NOT thinking for themselves, and following it blindly.> “You might be right, but it's not all of them. Mine for sure.” Can you elaborate on this please? I am wondering if any followers of Christ who are participating in this discussion have watched the three video segments that CC posted, and what did you think of them.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I watched the first segment, then did some Googling on Horus, who the video claims has several direct things in common with the story of Jesus. The video presents it as if it were simply a fact and yet, it seems like there is much dispute on the mythology of Horus. A simple qualifier or two would have at least acknowledged that such debate exists, but it's simpler, I guess, to go ahead and present it as just a "fact". I found some sites that say the video is spot on correct, others that say it's completely wrong and distorted, others that debate whether or not Horus was indeed crucified or stung by a scorpion. That sort of thing bothers me. It's a propaganda tactic that makes me wonder what else in the following video could be similarly presented as "fact" when it is still the subject of much debate. I mean, really, if I posted some religious video pretending to be objective and fact-based account, you'd call BS on it, rightly. So for people who say they like to question things, did you just take at face value what the video said, or did you look up some sources that back up the claims definitively?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Oh, and to say he was born of a virgin mother seems to depend a lot on how you define virgin. Some of the versions of the story of Horus' conception are a little more randy than can be written here.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "The video presents it as if it were simply a fact and yet, it seems like there is much dispute on the mythology of Horus." In another one of the segments the film presents a similar breakdown of the story of Joseph from the Old Testament and say that both his story and that of Jesus are roughly similar. Having never heard that I did some very quick online investigating and I couldn't find anything in the two stories that seemed remotely similar. On another note the astrological connections to Jesus' birth as described in conjunction with December 25 are fascinating.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "So for people who say they like to question things, did you just take at face value what the video said, or did you look up some sources that back up the claims definitively?" I try not to take anything on face value. Although, it's hard to find sources of info that are going to be absolutely 100% correct. I would, however, be suspect to believe any sources that flat out refutes the claims being made as having some religious agenda behind it. But you do have to remember that Horus was just ONE of the many, many gods before Jesus to have near identical stories.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***In your meat eating example, if you ate at a restaurant where you later learned that they were torturing animals or purchased meat from companies that tortured animals, and then you said, "Oh well, what can I do," and continued to eat there instead of choosing another restaurant or grocery store, then yes, you would be culpable because you have a choice*** In one sense, the Catholics and the Mormons are extremely similar in terms of this issue. If you are a fervent believer, then no you do NOT have a choice. To leave means damnation. There's a ton of psychological leverage these particular churches have over their devout members. Not saying they can't, but I'm just pointing out that it's a far more frightening prospect than, say, someone from a fundie church who doesn't like their minister so moves to another, similar fundie church and nobody gives them much of a hard time about it.
Originally Posted By alexbook "An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it." --Don Marquis
Originally Posted By alexbook I have to say, as somebody with no dog in this fight (I'm a lapsed Atheist), that the "10 questions" video's tone is so condescending as to be insulting. If you want to have a serious discussion about the content, ask the questions yourself.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt The tone isn't as condescending to me as it is impatient, which sadly is something that I feel all too often when talking to people about religious beliefs. lol
Originally Posted By alexbook What actually were the questions? The video was so annoying I turned it off before I got to them.
Originally Posted By Mr X The first one was (and this is from memory) something like "if miracles do in fact happen, and God grants them all the time as religious people claim, why does God consistently ignore the prayers of amputees?". Which really IS an excellent question if you ask me. It's funny that the only "miracles" that supposedly occur always, and without fail, occur only within the bounds of modern scientific possibility...and never beyond. It's interesting that people still claim SOME occurrences (rare though they might be) to be "miracles" but lump all the rest into "the answer is no" or "it's Gods will", given the obvious fact that any God worth his salt could, if he felt like it, miraculously award a new limb to a devout soul (heck, even THAT is scientifically possible, just not for humans!). The other questions are equally thought provoking (a couple of them are lame though)...it's kinda sad that people would be so annoyed by the "tone" as to ignore the actual content (although, in fairness, it's hard for me to get past the nasty tone when it comes to some public figures and thus my perspective is skewed, but recently I'm trying to get over that weakness of mine!).
Originally Posted By alexbook We live in an age of information overload. I've heard (though I don't know if it's true) that hours of new video are posted to YouTube every minute. Nobody can watch them all, so we pick and choose. Given that, I'm not inclined to spend ten minutes listening to a badly made video by somebody who opens up by insulting his audience. The question about why God doesn't cure amputees is a special case of the old question about why God permits suffering. It's one of those Big Questions that theologians have debated for millennia. The answers seem to boil down to, "He must have His reasons." For me, as an agnostic, the presence of suffering doesn't prove to me that there is no god. It may be that god(s) exist(s) but is/are unable to relieve all the suffering in the universe (either because of a lack of omnipotence or because the suffering may serve some greater purpose). Alternatively, it may be that god(s) exist(s) but are not omnibenevolent. I suppose a Christian, Jew or Muslim would have to go with the "it must serve some greater purpose" answer.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The first one was (and this is from memory) something like "if miracles do in fact happen, and God grants them all the time as religious people claim, why does God consistently ignore the prayers of amputees?".<< (mawnck cautiously reapproaches the thread, with the caveat that he has neither the time, the patience, nor the wisdom to come anywhere near the eloquence of other posters, especially 2oony) The thing about the first question, and the thing that led me to skip through the video and read the others rather than having them read to me, was that it started out with a lengthy statement of what "you, as a Christian, believe." And that statement was totally wrong, at least as far as I'm concerned. I do not, and have never, believed that God passes out miracles like they were presents or candy or something. "The Lord works in mysterious ways" is a trite but accurate description of my belief in this regard. And I see no conflict between praising God for good things while not blaming him for the bad. That goes to the nature of God Himself, which is not about *physical* intervention at all, good or bad. While I readily agree that many, perhaps most, Christians might not quite see it that way, I still resent that the video tried to define ME as a Christian at least twice before it even asked the first question (along with the strong implication that "I'm about to prove how stupid you're being"), and that's my A-#1 beef. Anybody starts telling me what I believe when I don't, and I tend to fly off the handle. You may have notisssssssssseD.
Originally Posted By Mr X The real sticking point though, Alex, is in the claim by many (most?) Christians that God DOES grant miracles either often, or at least from time to time. Given that, the question is a valid one. Why would he grant SOME miracles to SOME people, yet limit himself only to miracles that can be scientifically proven false? I like your reasoning better though. I have *never* (not even back when I was religious), bought into that "greater purpose" garbage. For what greater purpose did millions of Jews suffer and die? For what greater purpose do little kids get struck down by fatal health conditions? For what greater purpose do kids starve by the millions in Africa? If there is some "greater purpose" to all of this, then it must be an evil minded one...and if so, I hope I never have to meet such an evil minded creature that would dream up such inconceivable suffering in order to prove his point!
Originally Posted By alexbook Perhaps (not speaking as a believer or even an ex-believer, but just speculating) there is some other "plane" which is more important than this one. Perhaps, our suffering here is temporary and will lead to greater, more important, longer lasting joy on some other "plane." It's conceivable. Perhaps, the suffering of one person will lead to a better life for others. Perhaps, the suffering of millions will lead to glory for billions. It's easy to imagine such a scenario. The reason I gave up Atheism is that there's no way to know about these things. I can easily imagine a Plan that would justify it all, just as I can imagine a universe without a Plan.
Originally Posted By Mr X On post 218.... Sure. But you could just as easily imagine a scenario where further "planes" are unimaginably worse than this one. It's only wishful thinking that leads us to hope "the beyond" is much better, and to reason out the notion that such a thing is the reason why stuff sucks here. But beyond all of that useless conjecture, the question the guy asks in the video is a legitimate one...why, if miracles DO occur (as many religious folks claim) do amputees get ignored by God?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>It's only wishful thinking that leads us to hope "the beyond" is much better, and to reason out the notion that such a thing is the reason why stuff sucks here.<< No it isn't. And that's the message of Christianity. You may say that we're choosing to believe this to make us feel better, to which I'd reply: OK, and your point is?
