Originally Posted By Mr X ***No it isn't*** Sure it is. And I hope so too! But you have no proof or evidence one way OR the other. ***You may say that we're choosing to believe this to make us feel better, to which I'd reply: OK, and your point is?*** My point would be that people engage in wishful thinking to make themselves feel better, evidence to the contrary. What's YOUR point?
Originally Posted By Mr X Why did you skip my opening comment, by the way? Alex pointed out a bunch of "maybes", in reference to why bad things happen to good people (in a nutshell), and I offered up a mirror universe of unimaginable horror. Why is one "likely" and the other not so?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>if miracles DO occur (as many religious folks claim) do amputees get ignored by God?<< (1) Thank you for phrasing it like that. (2) I don't think they do. Again, what IS God? If you accept that amputees are doomed to a life of irredeemable nonstop suckage, then yeah, I guess you could say they're ignored by God, and they might as well put themselves out of their misery. But if their lives contain joy, love, happiness, interest, any of the **good stuff**, then how can you say God is ignoring them? I guess this part of my beliefs boils down to this" God is good. Also, good is God. If that makes any sense. God does not directly intervene in the physical world, at least not in the sense of ZAP! you have new legs.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Why is one "likely" and the other not so?<< That's why they call it faith. Christianity (and various other religions) ARE the answer to that question. You can choose to believe the contrary if you wish. Free country. ;-)
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I don't think most Christians simply throw up their hands and say "God, I need a miracle" and sit around waiting for it. Most recognize that part of the human experience, the best part, is how we rally around those in need and help to the best of our ability. The teachings of Christ are ALL about that. Doing for those without. Doing for others, taking care of the sick and the elderly and so on. Even if there is no God, it is miraculous what people can do in the name of helping others. That collective "spirit" is an awesome thing to see in action. After seeing how depraved some people can be, so violent, uncaring, selfish, to then see people rally around a cause, or help when they didn't really HAVE to... to me, there's something there that's uniquely human, special, inspiring and filled with hope that we all are greater than the sum of our parts. Those are the times I feel most spiritual and connected to God. And if there is a God, I feel like those are the times, working through all of us, that he shows his presence most clearly.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***If you accept that amputees are doomed to a life of irredeemable nonstop suckage, then yeah, I guess you could say they're ignored by God, and they might as well put themselves out of their misery. But if their lives contain joy, love, happiness, interest, any of the **good stuff**, then how can you say God is ignoring them?*** Nice job jumping on my poor phrasing, but you KNOW what I meant. Why do their prayers for a regrown limb get ignored, when other people are granted their miracles (always, of course, within the bounds of medical scientific possibility), is OBVIOUSLY what I meant. And yes, you might claim that miracles (of a healing sort) DON'T happen but many religious authorities do claim such events occur, and regularly. Your enthusiastic tangent is irrelevant to the question, but nice try.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<You may say that we're choosing to believe this to make us feel better, to which I'd reply: OK, and your point is?>> Is there a point? I mean, who cares if someone believes in a higher power that loves and cares about them, and will hopefully care for them when they die? That type of belief doesn't hurt anyone - and it's one that I share. It's when other things start getting tacked onto that belief, by some groups of people, and are used against other groups of people that I start having a problem. And unfortunately, for better or worse, most Christian denominations do engage in that sort of activity at one level or another.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Even if there is no God, it is miraculous what people can do in the name of helping others. That collective "spirit" is an awesome thing to see in action*** On that, we can all agree!
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And yes, you might claim that miracles (of a healing sort) DON'T happen but many religious authorities do claim such events occur, and regularly.<< But he has already said that he doesn't believe that God intervenes in that way. And that's the problem with the video -- it starts with a set of beliefs assuming that anyone who is Christian shares that belief. It's a debating strawman technique. Set up a "question" that no one asked and demand an answer to it. It's in some ways a "are you still beating your wife?" sort of set up. A better question would be "Why does God seem to answer some prayers but not others?" Some Christians believe that what God provides is the inner strength, the hope, to get through tragedies and sorrows rather than magically making limbs grow back.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Some Christians believe that what God provides is the inner strength, the hope, to get through tragedies and sorrows rather than magically making limbs grow back.>> But if one reads the Bible, at one time God apparently DID intervene in human lives in a physical way. Why would he have stopped? I suppose one could claim that they only see the Bible as a set of stories to teach us about the nature of God. But what about Jesus Christ? To be a Christian, does one have to believe that Jesus was a physical human being who died for our sins, or can one just believe in his teachings and ignore the rest? And if it's the former, then why did God stop physically intervening in our lives after Jesus?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***A better question would be "Why does God seem to answer some prayers but not others?"*** That question isn't "better" at all, it's simply more convenient for the already religious-minded. God doesn't "seem" to do anything, is the point. And asking the question "if it's true that he does, than why does he ignore the desires of certain types of people" is a far more legitimate question. If you disagree that he does so in any case, you can simply ignore the question. But on the other hand, if you DO claim that he does "answer prayers" or "perform miracles", as many Christians do, then you have to face the question and find a way to answer it.
Originally Posted By andyll <<The thing about the first question, and the thing that led me to skip through the video and read the others rather than having them read to me, was that it started out with a lengthy statement of what "you, as a Christian, believe." >> I found a poll that said 90% of christians believe in miracles. 90% of any group is a huge number so the video making that statement is not a show stopper. Beleiving in miracles is not a requirement of christians. However... believing that Jesus was the son of God is. And Jesus performing miracles is one of the ways the bible shows that Jesus is the son of god. A quick search found 37 miracles that the bible states that Jesus performed. To not believe in miracles allows one to cast doubt on the rest of the bible ( new testament ) and even on the claim that Jesus was the son of God.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I found a poll that said 90% of christians believe in miracles.<< But how do they define "miracle"? A few posts back, I defined what I thought was something miraculous about human beings, something that could (or could not) be attributed to God. Do 90% of people think God will grow back limbs if people pray for it hard enough? I'm sure some do. Most, however? I doubt that. And that's why the whole thing was a set up: Convenient for the already not-religious-minded, to paraphrase Mr. X. People with religious faith accept that they cannot answer some questions and take it on faith that there is a higher power/being that exists. Religious faith requires that a person believe in the unbelievable, trust in things that are uncertain. I totally get why some people cannot do that.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Why do their prayers for a regrown limb get ignored, when other people are granted their miracles (always, of course, within the bounds of medical scientific possibility), is OBVIOUSLY what I meant.<< Sorry, that WAS the question I was attempting to answer. Maybe I wasn't clear. I do not think God "grants" miracles. >>But if one reads the Bible, at one time God apparently DID intervene in human lives in a physical way. Why would he have stopped?<< Some of us do not take the Bible that literally. >> To be a Christian, does one have to believe that Jesus was a physical human being who died for our sins, or can one just believe in his teachings and ignore the rest?<< No to both. Again, it depends on whether you see the Bible as a literal history book or as a compiled set of teachings ... some historical, some not, some a mix of the two. For me, the actual mechanism of the saving (IE nailing a miracle-performing guy to a cross) is not that important. The point to Jesus is what was alluded to earlier ... that whatever follows this life is NOT going to be worse. As humans, we are capable of both good and evil, and the point to Jesus is that repenting of our evil, and forgiving it in others, redeems us in a spiritual sense.
Originally Posted By mawnck (PS - When I said "thank you for phrasing it like that," what I was referring to was your saying that ***many*** religious folks make the claim. Thus I didn't feel lumped in.)
Originally Posted By andyll >> To be a Christian, does one have to believe that Jesus was a physical human being who died for our sins, or can one just believe in his teachings and ignore the rest?<< >>No to both. The term Christian is just a label that meant(means) follower of Jesus. Can you be a follower of Jesus and not believe in that Jesus as a single person existed? Probably not. Can you be a follower of Jesus if you don't believe that Jesus was the son of god and was resurrected? Probably not even under the most general definitions of Christian. You can call yourself whatevery you want but don't be surprised ( or offended ) when most people expect you to believe in Jesus as the actual son of god if you call yourself a christian. I can call myself a mormon but if I don't believe the current head of the church is a prophet it's kind of pointless for me to do so.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<For me, the actual mechanism of the saving (IE nailing a miracle-performing guy to a cross) is not that important. The point to Jesus is what was alluded to earlier ... that whatever follows this life is NOT going to be worse.>> While I personally agree with the point of your statement, I'm not sure that 99% of Christians would agree. From what I remember from Catholic CCD, it was the person of Jesus who made all this possible. He had to "die on the cross" in order for humanity to gain access to heaven. Protestants take this one step further, and claim that one must have a "personal relationship with Jesus" in order to gain access to heaven. Do you disagree that a belief in a physical Jesus Christ seems to be almost required to be considered a Christian? At least by the majority of denominations?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>You can call yourself whatevery you want but don't be surprised ( or offended ) when most people expect you to believe in Jesus as the actual son of god if you call yourself a christian.<< Here we go again ..... "Most people" do not get to decide what religion I am affiliated with or what my beliefs are in relation to it. I believe in what Jesus represents, forgiveness and redemption. But point taken.
Originally Posted By mawnck And just a side note ... >>Protestants take this one step further, and claim that one must have a "personal relationship with Jesus" in order to gain access to heaven.<< Only some of them. This is by no means a universal belief, at least not in the sense that it's practiced by the fundamentalists.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I believe in what Jesus represents, forgiveness and redemption.>> Not to pry to much into your belief system, but I'm curious - do you believe in a type of "hell" for those that are evil? Eternal Damnation is a concept that I have never been able to believe in - I don't think anyone can possibly do anything during their short lives on this Earth that would require them to be damned for all eternity. Purgatory always made more sense to me - a time of punishment followed by salvation.
