Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I know that most of the more rationale Christians on these boards do call other "crazy Christians" out for their nuttiness, but that doesn't seem to be a universal thing.<< Well, I suppose if someone is very actively involved in their church, there might be a way to inject some of that into the conversation. Or perhaps a priest or minister could say so from the pulpit. Outside of that, what can a person do? It's like how people say "Muslims should denounce terrorism" and they do in their own community and yet they still get lumped in with the crazies the next time something happens.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I never said I was offended. others seem to have decided I am. Then again, I never said atheists don't live by the Golden Rule, but that got twisted around too. I just don't think some people here know enough about believing in God or about how other people go about making those decisions for themselves to be making any kind of comments about those beliefs. Fine, some of you don't believe. I have no problem with that. But don't go and tell me anything about how I live my life in this area, especially when I've made no such comments about yours. Want to bitch about Mormons and how they interfere with other people? I'm there. But considering I go out of my way NOT to interject how I live that part of my life on anyone else, kindly refrain from telling me anything negative about it. That's not being offended, that's just fair warning.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Outside of that, what can a person do?>> I wish I knew - maybe there really isn't anything that can be done. Perhaps it's just the nature of the world we live in that the loudest, craziest voices get all the attention, and the sane, rationale people are forced to deal with it.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Then why even participate in the discussion if you dont want to discuss your beliefs? that was my intention was to discuss your beliefs because you were participating in the discussion. I didnt know you felt that area was so off limits. of course i dont know how youcame to believe what you do which is why i was asking you so i could try and understand how or why you do. that was kind od the whole point. and for the record you once posted me about ten reasons or so why you believe in a god.. i still remember most of those reasons so i was working off that as a basis of your belief system and how it formed.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Then why did you attack/chide CC in post 57 when she made a statement about christians and the bible?" I'm glad you brought that up because I noticed that too. It's interesting how similar this debate is to the conversation in video from the OP's link. "And if I did not believe in God at some point, I don't see myself expending a whole lot of effort in trying to convince anyone who does have faith that they are all wrong." I'm not convinced this is what's happening, at least not here. In CC's case I see it as someone who is presenting substantial facts and evidence that disprove that Jesus was/is a supernatural being who dwells in Heaven with God, the Messiah, or whatever it is that Christians claim him to have been/be. How, exactly, is the presentation of the truth, and the logical reasoning behind it, a personal attack on anyone's beliefs? The facts speak clearly for themselves.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "But don't go and tell me anything about how I live my life in this area, especially when I've made no such comments about yours." Who here is doing that? I don't mean to offend, but you come across as a little too prickly about this subject.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>How, exactly, is the presentation of the truth, and the logical reasoning behind it, a personal attack on anyone's beliefs?<< I didn't say it was. I did say that the starting point that religion is delusional thinking is no more a "fact" than God in heaven is a fact. Both are beliefs. If I start a conversation with "People who have annual passes to Disneyland are rude, obnoxious and do nothing but add to the overcrowding" then the conversation is going to go a certain way right at the outset. I do not like it when people equate religion with fairy tales, unicorns, and whatever else. Not because it threatens religion, but because it's a rather dismissive way to have that conversation. Likewise, I don't like it when people of faith start off with calling people evil heathens doing the devil's work and so forth. Just another call to reasonableness, that's all.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt >>How, exactly, is the presentation of the truth, and the logical reasoning behind it, a personal attack on anyone's beliefs?<< “I didn't say it was.” I know K2M. My comment was meant to be a general remark to all the posters here who appear to be offended by the presentation of facts that debunk that Christ ever walked the Earth, or at the very least, that he was the son of God. Or even that there is a God. “I did say that the starting point that religion is delusional thinking is no more a "fact" than God in heaven is a fact. Both are beliefs.” The starting point is not that religion is delusional thinking; that is the conclusion reached after examining the facts. If someone is presented with truths and still believes in things that cannot possibly be true then I’m not sure what to call that kind of thinking without offending the person. It isn’t meant to be personal, but I can understand why someone perceive it that way. “I do not like it when people equate religion with fairy tales, unicorns, and whatever else. Not because it threatens religion, but because it's a rather dismissive way to have that conversation.” How exactly is it dismissive? Of course it bothers you because such assertions seemingly disregard a belief that you take very seriously, but it isn’t meant to be dismissive because there really is no substantive scientific evidence to support the existence of God OR unicorns. In all seriousness, how do you distinguish your beliefs in an all mighty god (or goddess or whatever your supernatural beliefs may be) from a belief in fantastical things that you know don’t exist?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder You know Hans, maybe you ought to quit at this point. If you think people have been offended before, then get ready. You obviously believe you have all the answers, there is no God, and the rest of us are full of crap for believing it. No sense in going any further.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The starting point is not that religion is delusional thinking; that is the conclusion reached after examining the facts.<< Six of one, half dozen of the other. Either way, the argument seems to be that there is the TRUTH and people who don't believe it are simply delusional. If the stories of Noah or Jonah don't pass the test of scientific understanding, then all the rest of it must be delusional or lies or whatever you'd like to call it. Even if every word in the bible is made up by "primitive men" it does not prove that there is no God. Is that rationalization? A convenient way to still believe when there is evidence for disbelief? Either way, when all is said and done it comes down to what one believes. I can no more prove that God exists than you can prove He does not. So, we're back to matters of faith and belief.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Things of the spirit can only be understood under the influence of the spirit.
Originally Posted By gadzuux The problem - for me anyway - is when people disregard actual measurable facts in favor of whatever tenets of their particular brand of religion they may hold. Or in other words, blind faith trumps facts. To these folks, the earth is only a few thousand years old, it was created by the hand of god himself, in six days, dinosaurs coexisted with people, hurricanes are a sign of god's wrath, and plenty more. What happens is this disconnect then tends to bleed over into their more secular lives, and they're willing to believe things that fit their preconceived notions, and discount actual science in favor of things that they wish and hope are true - like that man doesn't cause climate change. This continues to spiral downhill - and it's not JUST christianity, but any fervent believer of whatever brand of faith they subscribe to - they are god's chosen, god won't let anything happen to them, and god wants them to smite their enemies. Now people here on this board may think "well that's not ME" - but you voluntarily align yourself with people like that - and there are millions of them. And yet these 'sensible' folks don't feel any responsibility for the actions of the very people they're aligned with. It's not much different from 'sensible' republicans who may not believe in half (or more) of the official positions of the party they support, but don't feel any responsibility for the actions and statements of the GOP. If you're donating time and attention and money to an organization - whether it's a church or a political party, you cannot then disavow the more erratic beliefs and actions of that group. You can't have it both ways.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "You obviously believe you have all the answers, there is no God, and the rest of us are full of crap for believing it." I never said anything remotely like believers are full of crap, and you know it. You criticize others for judging and jumping to conclusions about your beliefs and there you are doing it yourself. What I am trying to do is have an adult discussion here and I posed some questions that I thought were reasonable and thoughtful based on my atheist point of view. If you do not want to consider and address them, fine, but kindly refrain from purposely being antagonistic. That attitude does nothing to help to further your point. "Either way, the argument seems to be that there is the TRUTH and people who don't believe it are simply delusional." Well of course. No one here is saying that you aren't entitled your beliefs, but at the same time as a reasonable person, you can't justifiably get pissed off when facts contradict your faith. "I can no more prove that God exists than you can prove He does not." Normally this is where the religious discussion ends, and I always think to myself that one could easily use this exact same argument when talking about sea serpents and mermaids. The argument that “I can't prove mine and you can't prove yours” does not satisfy my curiosity of how an intelligent rational person can believe in things that we know logically cannot possibly exist. More importantly, why do they believe it?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt K2M, I did not mean to suggest that you personally are getting "pissed", but rather it was meant to say that the reaction of believers is often unnecessarily defensive when their belief system is measured against facts.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I never said anything remotely like believers are full of crap, and you know it. You criticize others for judging and jumping to conclusions about your beliefs and there you are doing it yourself." Not so fast. From you- "...because there really is no substantive scientific evidence to support the existence of God OR unicorns. In all seriousness, how do you distinguish your beliefs in an all mighty god (or goddess or whatever your supernatural beliefs may be) from a belief in fantastical things that you know don’t exist?" Calling it crap just cuts to the chase. "What I am trying to do is have an adult discussion here and I posed some questions that I thought were reasonable and thoughtful based on my atheist point of view. If you do not want to consider and address them, fine, but kindly refrain from purposely being antagonistic. That attitude does nothing to help to further your point." See, that's just it. There is no point. I don't have any point to prove to you, and I doubt K2M or likely mawnck does either. I don't want to prove a point, and I don't feel I need to prove a point. Moreover, I have no interest in anything you want to show me to prove your point. I have no interest in any "discussion" about this. You're not going to sway me. You're not going to "win". Just the same, I have no interest in swaying anyone, either. Do what you want with your lives in this area, I absolutely, positively, unequivocally, don't care.
Originally Posted By gadzuux SPP - aren't you required to swear oaths - on a bible - under god - as part of your gig? If so, would there be any awkward professional repercussions if it were known that someone in your position was either agnostic or atheist?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt “Calling it crap just cuts to the chase.” No, it reduces the discourse to the level of a 5th grader. Note that I am taking this topic seriously, and I am purposely trying to be careful with my words and steer clear of snarky or sarcastic remarks. I never called your beliefs “crap”; I posed a question about how believers can substantiate their faith in things that are scientifically impossible and your response was to pick a fight. “See, that's just it. There is no point. I don't have any point to prove to you, and I doubt K2M or likely mawnck does either. I don't want to prove a point, and I don't feel I need to prove a point. Moreover, I have no interest in anything you want to show me to prove your point. I have no interest in any "discussion" about this. You're not going to sway me. You're not going to "win". Just the same, I have no interest in swaying anyone, either. Do what you want with your lives in this area, I absolutely, positively, unequivocally, don't care.” If you do not care then why are you still here? If you have nothing to prove, you do not feel compelled to answer the questions, and you have nothing to prove, then why do you continue to participate in the discussion?
