Originally Posted By gadzuux As an example of my earlier point of people supplanting their faith over reality, I just stumbled upon this story a minute ago ... >> Evangelist Cindy Jacobs, self-described "world recognized prophet to the nations," has theory [about recent bird deaths]. She suggests bird deaths are an "answer from God" for the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." "According to biblical principles, marriage is between a man and a woman, so we have to say 'what happens when a nation makes a decision that's against God's principles? Well, often what happens is that nature itself will begin to talk to us - for instance, violent storms, flooding." God may be killing off birds, but he has apparently spared the loons. <<
Originally Posted By gadzuux But it goes directly to the "simple" thinking that 'mawnk' got defensive about earlier. Anything you don't understand personally can be ascribed to god's will. People may ask about what causes tides, or they may simply shrug and say that it's the hand of god. People may wonder why all these birds and fish are dying off en masse, or they can ascribe it to the wrath of god because of whatever issue they're fixated on - usually gays. And rank-and-file christians think people are being unfair when others decide that commentary reflecting the christian viewpoint lack credibility. Or often sanity.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "SPP - aren't you required to swear oaths - on a bible - under god - as part of your gig? If so, would there be any awkward professional repercussions if it were known that someone in your position was either agnostic or atheist?" Lawyers don't need to be put under oath, they're not testifying. Witnesses are put under oath, and it's no big deal if one wants to leave out the "so help me God" part. The court just wants to be assured the witness is promising to tell the truth. Rarely does anyone make an issue out of it, though.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "No, it reduces the discourse to the level of a 5th grader. Note that I am taking this topic seriously, and I am purposely trying to be careful with my words and steer clear of snarky or sarcastic remarks. I never called your beliefs “crap”; I posed a question about how believers can substantiate their faith in things that are scientifically impossible and your response was to pick a fight." And I would suggest very strongly it's the other way around. You already have your mind made up. Where's the room for discussion? "Crap" most definitely reduces your many words to one succinct one. "If you do not care then why are you still here? If you have nothing to prove, you do not feel compelled to answer the questions, and you have nothing to prove, then why do you continue to participate in the discussion?" Again, what discussion? You seem to feel I'm upset or trying to pick a fight because I disagree with you. What we have here is a failure to communicate. In different ways, mawnck, K2M and nyself have tried to tell you we're simply not interested in whatever you want to say, whatever facts you want to present. There's a complete inability on your part to see your argument from our POV, apparently. There has been countless threads about religion on this board, mostly people ganging up on utahjosh or in the past, cmplaye about their religion. I'm right there climbing all over josh when Mormons impose themselves where they aren't wanted. But in a vaccuum, I'll never begrudge him his faith or try to tell him why his faith is contradicted by facts and so therefore he must be delusional or his faith is unreasonable. But when he brings it into my home to plant the Mormon flag when I never asked him to do so, then yeah. I'll get vicious in a hurry. Here's you're now trying to "discuss" with people who aren't professing to anything much other than simply believing in God. I belong to no organized religion, and I have no interest in defining myself as a Christisn or anything other than a believer. Since you endorse the following: >> "Either way, the argument seems to be that there is the TRUTH and people who don't believe it are simply delusional." Well of course. No one here is saying that you aren't entitled your beliefs, but at the same time as a reasonable person, you can't justifiably get pissed off when facts contradict your faith.<< Do you have any respect at all for someone's faith?
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "Not so fast. From you- "...because there really is no substantive scientific evidence to support the existence of God OR unicorns. In all seriousness, how do you distinguish your beliefs in an all mighty god (or goddess or whatever your supernatural beliefs may be) from a belief in fantastical things that you know don’t exist?" Calling it crap just cuts to the chase." In other words, shut the hell up because no matter how respectfully you try to question my faith, I'm going to get defensive and try and make you out to be a monster.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance It's hard from an atheist perspective to have a discussion with a "believer" without offending. The nature of the belief of an atheist seems to be offensive, so how can it be put into words to where it won't set someone off an a tangent? And if it is so offensive to someone and that person has zero interest in having a discussion about their beliefs with an atheist, then why on earth would you participate time and time again?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Again, what discussion?" Talk about being dismissive. Whoo boy. "In different ways, mawnck, K2M and nyself have tried to tell you we're simply not interested in whatever you want to say, whatever facts you want to present. There's a complete inability on your part to see your argument from our POV, apparently." Again, if you don't care about the facts or what they mean in relation to this topic then why do you keep posting here? Perhaps you don't mean to, but it sounds like you are trying to tell me and other atheists to shut up. "Do you have any respect at all for someone's faith?" Of course I do and I've said countless times that we are entitled to believe whatever we choose. However, this isn't a discussion about respect for people's faith; we're talking about science and religion.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder >"Again, what discussion?" Talk about being dismissive. Whoo boy.< Ah, the irony. Answer the question. What discussion? For my money, this thread went this direction when Constance did post 26 I think it was, saying "intelligent Christians" should watch the video at her link. mawnck tookissue, and they went at it until around post 50 or so, when I jumped in. Our message? There's nothing to discuss. "Again, if you don't care about the facts or what they mean in relation to this topic then why do you keep posting here? Perhaps you don't mean to, but it sounds like you are trying to tell me and other atheists to shut up." Well, you should. You do realize that if you excised me, mawnck, and K2M out of this thread, the vast majority of the remaining posts are just people with your POV agreeing with each other. Some discussion. "Of course I do and I've said countless times that we are entitled to believe whatever we choose. However, this isn't a discussion about respect for people's faith; we're talking about science and religion." No, it's you and Constance "..respectfully (try) to question my faith" and us trying to tell you you have no idea apparently that if you want to question our faith and at the same time tell us we're wrong to have faith, don't bother.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance I feel like I have to start everything I say off with "No offense, but..." I'm not being offensive, and I shouldn't have to feel like I'm doing something wrong when I'm respectfully voicing my opinion. I'm not trying to force my beliefs onto you, SPP. I was simply going to engage in a question and answer discussion based on the videos I posted. But no matter how I, or others, seem to go about voicing an opinion that doesn't fall in line with yours you feel that we're attacking and we have no respect for someone of faith. What has anyone said to you or anyone that is so offensive anyway???
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance I never said "Intelligent Christians" should watch the link, that's the friggin title of the video. Sheesh. And I picked that video because the vast majority of people that post in the WE section are what I would consider intelligent christians. Wow, how offensive of me.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance And why exactly should we shut up, SPP? Because we like debating things you don't like to hear? Wow, talk about arrogance. Who has you held captive against your will in this thread, SPP? You said if you, Manwck, and K2 weren't posting it would be me and Hans agreeing with each other. How does that even make sense? Because we're only talking to you 3 about things that you are posting not to each other at all. And here it comes back to the same question you refuse to answer. Just why do you keep posting things in the thread and discussion if it's so above and beyond you and your unquestionable beliefs?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Now people here on this board may think "well that's not ME" - but you voluntarily align yourself with people like that " Well, no. I certainly do not, and vice versa. The fundy churches pretty much can't stand my church.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 And Hans, I have to say you have a pretty (small l) liberal definition of the word "facts.". It IS a fact that the world is more than 6,000 years old. It is a fact that dinosaurs preceded humans. These things are demonstrable and scientifically proven. It is not a scientifically proven fact that God does not exist, though that seems to be your starring point. And sign me up for #66 and 108 too.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I never said "Intelligent Christians" should watch the link, that's the friggin title of the video. Sheesh.' You said exactly that in post 22. No quotes, nothing. it's there, you said it. "Just why do you keep posting things in the thread and discussion if it's so above and beyond you and your unquestionable beliefs?" You truly don't get it, do you? Like mawnck, I think I'm done here.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance i forgot to put quotes around the title of the youtube video, so sue me.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance You could just answer the question instead of acting so misunderstood, SPP.
Originally Posted By andyll Title of the video when you follow the link... "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer" Just reading the post I can see how you can assume she was saying that herself. But she said later that it was the title. So another (among many) gratuitous attacks on her... not really on what she is saying but on your preceived strawman views of what she is saying. Why 'are' you in this thread? Do you feel your attacks on her somehow strengthen your beliefs?
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Strengthening his and discrediting mine. All in one neat little package. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was a lawyer or something.
