Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "You could just answer the question instead of acting so misunderstood, SPP." You've gotten your answers, you just don't like them. You were warned off early on by posters other than me that this was not a road to travel. You did anyway, insisting on questioning people's faith. You were told again and again there's nothing to discuss. After insisting on questioning our faith, then you all have the gall to say YOU were attacked. Unbelievable. But, congratulations. Those of us who HAVE been down this road knew what was coming and tried to steer this clear. You've generated an enormous amount of ill will over it, just as has happened before. You couldn't leave well enough alone. Good going.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "You've gotten your answers, you just don't like them." I have? You can't answer the one question that has been posed to you one thousand times now. One that has nothing to do with questioning your faith. Why are you here if this topic generates such a negative response from you? You act like I'm twisting your arm, keeping you here, forcing you to make one comment after another. You keep saying you have nothing more to say, and your done, but somehow you keep talking. You seem to think a religious debate is a personal attack on you. I've seen you attacking people in other threads, not just this one. It's what comes to mind when I see your name now a days. Looking at your posts looking for the harsh and unnecessary criticism that most often can be found in them. If you don't like discussing your religion, stop discussing it, and stop acting like you have any right to stop others from debating if they so choose. Now go ahead, and ignore the question again while you nitpick everything I've just said.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Why are you here if this topic generates such a negative response from you?" THERE'S NOTHING TO DEBATE. THERE IS NO DISCUSSION. mawnck has told you this, K2M has told you this, I have, and Dabob just signed on to it. I am now repeating myself. There have been countless threads debating religion. They ALL degenerate into atheists telling people who believe how wrong they are with their "facts" . Every single damn one of them. When I said if you took out me, mawnck K2M andnow Dabob, all thread would be is the rest of you patting each other on the back. The point being no one else cares to "debate" you on this. This very personal topic has been done to death. When you queston someone's faith you ARE attacking that person's belief system, mores and values, but you don't seem to get that. As for your comments about me personally, I have not made one comment about you. Not one about your profession, if you have any, not one about you being a mother, a wife, or your posting style. Yet, you just made a snide comment about me being a lawyer, dozens of posts back you put words in my mouth about the Golden Rule, and now you write several lines about how I post here. Yet you're the one claiming I've attacked you. THIS is what we were all talking about when we said you don't want to go down this road. You pushed and pushed, insisting anyway. This thread should be closed.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "You were warned off early on by posters other than me that this was not a road to travel. You did anyway, insisting on questioning people's faith. You were told again and again there's nothing to discuss." Warned? Told? What is that supposed to mean? Are we being threatened now? "After insisting on questioning our faith, then you all have the gall to say YOU were attacked. Unbelievable." Unbelievable? What's unbelievable is that you've gotten so bent out of shape over a a discussion about science and the belief in God. Why is that? Why are you so thinned skinned about this? If you don't like the the conversation then simply leave the discussion. It really is that simple SPP, but instead of doing that you choose to stay but claim that you don't care and then proceed to bully people and act as though you're the one being victimized.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance You shouldn't assume I'm filled with as much anger as you are. My comment about you being a lawyer was an attempt (obviously a failed one) to lighten the mood a bit. No need to close the topic. I'm done here.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Bummer. I was just going to post a comment to you about the links you provided. I watched the videos and I wanted to get this discussion back where it was before it got sidetracked.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"You were warned off early on by posters other than me that this was not a road to travel. You did anyway, insisting on questioning people's faith. You were told again and again there's nothing to discuss." Warned? Told? What is that supposed to mean? Are we being threatened now?*** Yup. ***This thread should be closed*** Like this. One who is not trying to intimidate would use words like "I think" in a statement like this, but not Passholder. For the record, I agree with Constance and I think the video was fine, too...more than fine, quite enlightening. People who are ticked off by it should examine their own personal reasons why that should be so.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Thanks, X. Hans, what did you think of the three Zitegeist videos? Watching them for me was really enlightening. My husband showed them to me awhile back. I've heard that info from other sources before, in bits and pieces, but it was really pretty awesome having it all layed out in succession like that. I've been an atheist for nearly 15 years now (wow, I can't believe it's been that long), and I don't think I've seen anything quite as well done as those videos.
Originally Posted By andyll SPP... you're close to DAR territory in my opinion. <<As for your comments about me personally, I have not made one comment about you. Not one about your profession, if you have any, not one about you being a mother, a wife, or your posting style.>> Actually you have made plenty of snide innuendo type of posts about her. You over and over purposely 'misunderstand' her posts. Starting with the 1st one you replied to... post 56. It was abundently clear she was talking about Christians and teh bible. You are not of the christian faith so why did you take offense and act like she was attacking you? Then you keep attributing the "Intelligent Christians" words to CC even though both she and I clarified that the video was titled that and it wasn't her term. In 3-4 posts you keep speaking for others. If you don't want people to lump all believers together then quit doing it yourself. The thread started about one believers incrediblily stupid statement attributing a known gravitational effect as proof that god exists. CC posts a link to a video that is reasonably on topic. You really don't address either topic but instead get defensive and start attacking CC because you feel your faith was attacked. The funny thing is... in the 1st few pages of this thread plenty of people were attacking 'blind' faith... but you only jumped in when CC posts. Yet, you just made a snide comment about me being a lawyer, dozens of posts back you put words in my mouth about the Golden Rule, and now you write several lines about how I post here. Yet you're the one claiming I've attacked you.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "SPP... you're close to DAR territory in my opinion." I agree. "Hans, what did you think of the three Zitegeist videos?" Incredibly enlightening! It's interesting because when the "dots" are connected it all makes so much sense. I've been aware for years that pagen rituals had been adopted and used in Christmas traditions, but I never knew that there were so many ancient connections between Christianity and astrology used in the Bible. I liked the videos enough to actually do some research on the The Zeitgeist Movement and the activist organization it spun from, The Venus Project. Check them out: <a href="http://www.thevenusproject.com/" target="_blank">http://www.thevenusproject.com/</a> <a href="http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com" target="_blank">http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com</a> Note that the Venus Project has another documentary being released later this month. "I've been an atheist for nearly 15 years now (wow, I can't believe it's been that long), and I don't think I've seen anything quite as well done as those videos." CC, although I was raised as a Protestant Christian, I think deep down inside I've always been an atheist, or at least a free-thinker. No matter how hard I tried to believe, it rarely seemed tangible and real to me.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"SPP... you're close to DAR territory in my opinion." I agree*** Looking back at the way he pounced on Constance right from the beginning, I can understand the sentiment.
Originally Posted By andyll <<Looking back at the way he pounced on Constance right from the beginning, I can understand the sentiment.>> Posts 1-20 were mostly kinda attacking faith in various ways. Some in jest and some calling into question the intelligence of some believers. But it was CC that got attacked. I really wasn't paying attention until she complained that SPP seemed to always do that to her. In re-reading the thread I agree with her. There was a degress of condescension snide replies to her. The replies to her post 42 were interesting. Yes the text of her post would not pass muster in a thesis paper but the sentence nailed the fundimental tenats of christianity... Jesus as the son of god who died for our sins and was resurrected. It got nitpicked and belittled.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***God had this whole Christ as our savior thing planned out before mankind existed*** That is quite a statement right there. It certainly begs more questions...like, how did he know we'd need a savior? If it's because he can see all and know all, why not just go back to the drawing board and create a more upstanding, morally acceptable (to him) brand of human rather than ask his son to take a bullet? Or, did he really WANT to create flawed beings so they'd have to be subservient in order to get back into his good graces or something? It's all rather puzzling, and dare I even say, pretty imperfect for a being that's supposed to be perfect. Why would a perfect being PLAN for a bloody sacrifice as "the only way", rather than just figure out another tack (or just give up on the whole kooky plan entirely!?). We so often hear about how much God loves us, but when you think about it why does he not love his son the same way!? He really treats him like a pawn, particularly if you believe this claim that he planed it before humans even existed at all.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Hans, thanks for the links. That's awesome! And I feel like I was always somewhat a doubter too. I was raised Catholic, family is still Catholic. I always had my doubts, but I spent years feeling guilty about them. It was a huge relief when I finally had enough info to say, "Okay, that's it for me, I no longer am a Christian." and could let go of the guilt.
Originally Posted By Labuda "CC, although I was raised as a Protestant Christian, I think deep down inside I've always been an atheist, or at least a free-thinker. No matter how hard I tried to believe, it rarely seemed tangible and real to me. " Yeah, I was raised Roman Catholic, but I remember getting looks from my CCD teachers when I raised questions about dinosaurs and how long one of the first six days was. I'm pretty sure I've always belie3ved in a creator, but not necessarily everything else, so I nowadays waffle between Deist and agnostic. Kudos to ALL people who can either call themselves a believer or athiest all the time. I just cannot blindly agree that "God" exists or does not exist. What I do know is that I dig Jesus as a person - and I was FLOORED this morning when my roommate tried to pay me for the breakfast tacos I made him today. Good grief! Can't I just be nice and give someone something without them thinking they owe me for it? Oy!
Originally Posted By Labuda RE: 153 That reminds me of a short story I read back when I was about 12 or 13... it was in an anthology that MAY have been titled "Young Aliens" or something of the sort. The anthology was edited by Isaac Asimov. And in it was a short story in which the God of Christians is a kindergartner who makes earth as a project for school... and gets a failing grade because earth ends up so hosed. Interesting little read.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Gadzuux made a comment earlier about Christians "aligning themselves" with extremist Christians simply by the fact that they share a belief in some areas. I flat reject that. It would be like saying that anyone who calls themselves an American is aligned with John Wayne Gacy or Charles Manson because they were American as well. And it goes right to the heart of the sort of bashing innocent Muslims get for things like the "Ground Zero Mosque". It's convenient to lump people of a faith into a one-dimensional you're-all-basically-the-same box. But it isn't right and it certainly is not fact-based. I would ask atheists and agnostics, in fairness, are you aligning yourself with more extremist versions your beliefs?
Originally Posted By Labuda I honestly do not mean this to be a snarky question in ANY way, 2oony, but can you please provide an example of an "extremist" agnostic belief (or lack thereof)?
Originally Posted By Labuda (I ask becuase I think most agnostics are like me and a bit too wishy-washy to commit on the topic of religion.)
