Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "There's nothing noble about terrorism, fighting it is noble." Note that I said "as far as he was concerned." In other words, what's noble to you isn't noble to him, and vice versa. Res ipsa loquitor and res judicata, mens res and ex parte puffery too.
Originally Posted By X-san Didn't say I didn't like it, Dar, in fact I have on numerous occasions mentioned that I think it's understandable. What *I* don't like is the fact that the government seems to be in agreement with you. The constitution was crafted to prevent such things, but I guess that doesn't matter much these days.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I mean, seriously, how much vital info would a leader's driver have anyway?<< Maybe none. Maybe a lot. Remember the articles about the man who interrogated Saddam Hussein? Incredibly, with time a patience, he was able to get all kinds of information out of Saddam not by beating the crap out of him, but by earning his trust. By becoming somewhat of a friend of sorts. By being his link to the outside world. And by occasionally feeding Saddam's enormous ego. That's called outwitting the enemy. And that's what it's going to take to truly win the war on terror.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...94.shtml</a>
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Remember the articles about the man who interrogated Saddam Hussein? Incredibly, with time a patience, he was able to get all kinds of information out of Saddam not by beating the crap out of him, but by earning his trust. By becoming somewhat of a friend of sorts. By being his link to the outside world. And by occasionally feeding Saddam's enormous ego. That's called outwitting the enemy. And that's what it's going to take to truly win the war on terror." And in all seriousness, that's the way I was taught to do interrogations and the way I taught it for years. Treat the person like a human being without being judgmental. You've already got him, you've "won", they're in the room with you and they aren't going anywhere. Make it easier for everyone concerned by treating them with a modicum of respect, even if and especially if you don't mean it.
Originally Posted By DAR Saddam "befriended" this guy and I guarantee you that first opportunity he's finding a way to cut this guy up into little pieces.
Originally Posted By DAR <<Make it easier for everyone concerned by treating them with a modicum of respect, even if and especially if you don't mean it.>> As soon as they show respect to the rest of the world then we can start showing it to them.
Originally Posted By X-san You're missing the point here Dar. Passholder isn't saying we should respect them. He is saying that treating them that way in an interrogation is more effective in obtaining information.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Saddam "befriended" this guy and I guarantee you that first opportunity he's finding a way to cut this guy up into little pieces.<< Yeah, it didn't go like that as it turns out. >>that's the way I was taught to do interrogations and the way I taught it for years. Treat the person like a human being without being judgmental. You've already got him, you've "won", they're in the room with you and they aren't going anywhere. Make it easier for everyone concerned by treating them with a modicum of respect, even if and especially if you don't mean it.<< Makes sense to me.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "As soon as they show respect to the rest of the world then we can start showing it to them." DAR, when was the last time you did what someone wanted because they screamed or yelled profanities at you? Or tried to bully you? Or beat you?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Or, when was the last time you wanted something from someone and you got it because you were an a-hole to them?
Originally Posted By DAR You've never met my mother. Seriously nobody has had to do any of things you mentioned. But then again I don't get a thrill seeing innocent people die a horrible death. That's the difference.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Seriously nobody has had to do any of things you mentioned." Why do you think that is?
Originally Posted By Japanland Not to deny that self-determination also played a role, but attitudes like DAR's are the ones that helped produce Hitler. Germany after World War I was ridiculed and looked down upon and the country was humiliated and facing financial ruin exacerbated by the policies of foreign powers. Americans, especially many living in the red states, look down on Arabs - and yes, the Arab/Moslem people know it. Don't kid yourself - I've heard a thousand conversations among Americans in which statements like "the terrorists are out to kill us" and "violence is inherent in the Moslem religion" lead to racist jokes etc. about “ragheads†and so on. Meanwhile, the many poor in the Arab world are treated to video of the American military guarding captured oil wells in Iraq while our massive arms industry enjoys ever-higher profits. Germans found solace in the notion of racial superiority. A few Moslems take solace in the concepts of jihad, etc. What kind of warrior Christianity would some Americans take solace in if their country were poor, institutions broken, occupied by a foreign force with little respect for their language, culture or way of life and surrounded by violence? Now we, the ones in power, are saying that Arab people are OK to torture without trial. That serves to anger the powerless and humiliated, and only adds to the power of dangerous radicals in Arab societies. It is the kind of attitude that led the Serbians and Bosnians to paint each other as vicious animals and kill and torture each other. And encourages genocide in Rwanda. We essentially invalidate our claim to respect, human decency and our supposed promise of a better civilization for everyone. Ignoring human standards of decency because they're "out to kill us" or "fanatical muslims" brings us down to the level of brutes. I guess if we continue to hold all the power, we can do whatever we want. We aren’t facing a power equal to us who can carry out the same actions against us as Serbia/Bosnia did. Other people are too far away and different to receive our full sympathy, and we can put our own self-interest and our-safety-at-all-costs above the interests of others. Maybe that’s human. Unfortunately, given the existence of nuclear weapons etc. and people willing to blow themselves up for a cause they believe in (no matter how idiotic and horrible that is) we may all have to pay the ultimate price. (And before you ridicule the idea of not ensuring our safety 100%, would you, say, nuke the rest of the world in order to save one American life? These are decisions that policymakers have to make every day and the lives of American soldiers are sacrificed every day by our military leaders to achieve our aims). Sometimes it seems as if Americans have little sympathy for the hundreds of thousands being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan versus the three thousand who died on 9/11. 95.5% of the world’s population does not live in the United States. Many of these people have endured and endure privation, suffering, losses and threats far in excess of the 3,000 innocents who died on 9/11. Yet they do not lash out in such a mean-spirited way. I submit that attitudes such as those that approve of the torture of those not proven guilty, especially in a time of relative peace such as this, do not help rid the world of terrorists and bring their plots to light, but instead fan anger, encourage the making of terrorists and make the world a more dangerous place for all. Terrorists should be hunted down and stopped by every means necessary, other than killing when possible and torture. To be rich and good encourages emulation. To be rich and mean provokes jealousy, anger and retaliation.
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Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder DAR, you're running two issues together. No one is suggesting we have sympathy for terrorists, and no one is saying not to be angry about 9/11. What we ARE saying is there are other ways to get information other than to torture people. Big difference.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy By definition, a terrorist would be anyone that condones or pursues torture as a means to meet their objective. Terrorists acts are merely methods of torturing a population through fear. We are no better than the terrorists if we practice this sort of behavior.
Originally Posted By dshyates "I do feel for the innocent people that have died in the wars the difference is that we never intentionally tried to kill them. " When you Shock and Awe the crap out of the place, there may be collateral damage. And since we are on a rightous mission its no big deal. We are the good guys so we can torture who we want because were are rightous. You guys just don't get it.
