Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan DAR, you're doing backflips in this thread looking for reasons to be outraged. You haven't addressed, at all, the question about whether torture is an effective method of gathering reliable information. In your opinion, is it? I think that's a legitimate question (setting aside the whole human rights, Geneva Conventions part of the argument against torture.) You haven't responded to it, but instead keep saying how you don't care about terrorists, to hell with 'em, grrr grrr grrrr.
Originally Posted By DAR Fine you want my answer here it is. I am for us using any and all methods to extract information whether it be sharing a Coke and smile with them or clamping jumper cables to the nether regions. But the fact is we need to gleam as much as we can. And quite frankly I don't care what the methods are.
Originally Posted By DAR Some of it will be effective some of it won't. But we have to stop acting like these are all innocent people that we have they're not. The majority of people we captured in Guantanamo are those that are members of Al-Qaeda and have no problem returning to that group when they're released.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And quite frankly I don't care what the methods are.<< That's fine. You don't get to be angry, however, when a captured American soldier gets tortured at the hands of his captors. Because you believe all's fair in war. Personally, I think we're better than that. That 60 Minutes piece showed the benefits of patience and cleverness. I suppose they could have just whacked Saddam with a tire iron, but somehow I don't think the quality of the information would have been as good.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But we have to stop acting like these are all innocent people that we have they're not.> There's that disconnect again. Nobody at Guantanamo is acting as if they're "all innocent." If anything, they're erring in the opposite direction. And nobody here is doing that either. All we're saying is that even if they're guilty, torture is a). wrong, b). ineffective, c). tarnishes us as a country.
Originally Posted By dshyates " But we have to stop acting like these are all innocent people that we have they're not." No one here is acting like they are all innocent. But we are a nation of laws and due process. And I would like to think we are civilized, but some here make me question that premise. The most recent estimate of innocents in Gitmo stands at 36. 36 innocents tortured in my name is too much. Go ahead and repeat how many "they" killed on 9/11 and say I don't care about them. Our treatment of detainees has nothing to do with what others have done to us. Raising above basic instinct is what civilization is about. DAR you mindset is positively barbaric.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>There's that disconnect again. Nobody at Guantanamo is acting as if they're "all innocent." If anything, they're erring in the opposite direction. And nobody here is doing that either. All we're saying is that even if they're guilty, torture is a). wrong, b). ineffective, c). tarnishes us as a country.<< Correct. DAR continues to respond to an argument nobody made. He's all worked up over treating these people like their terrorists, or that we're making sure they have a hyperallergenic pillow at Gitmo. Except of course, no one argued anything of the sort. It's quite a leap from "we shouldn't torture these people because it endangers American lives" to "You guys want to take bin Laden to dinner and see Guys and Dolls with him - YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!" We get it just fine, thanks. It's DAR that clearly doesn't get where we're coming from.
Originally Posted By DAR <<That's fine. You don't get to be angry, however, when a captured American soldier gets tortured at the hands of his captors. Because you believe all's fair in war.>> No I do get to be angry. An American soldier wears a uniform and is a representative of a country, therefore he/she is subject to the conditions of the Geneva Convention. Those in Al Qaeda do not represent any country nor do they wear a uniform.
Originally Posted By dshyates OK, what if they torture American Blackwater ops? American contractors? CBS reporters? You have even mentioned revenge for Daniel Pearl.
Originally Posted By DAR Sure those are American citizens. But if innocent people from South America, Europe, Australia, Asia and Africa are subjected to the barbarism of these people then I hope everything will be done to bring these terrorists to justice, again by any method.
Originally Posted By dshyates But DAR, justice and revenge are very different things. I am all for justice. And after a conviction, swiftly dispatched. But we should do everything in our power to not kill, torture, and otherwise impact innocents. This seems a very foriegn concept to you.
Originally Posted By dshyates You didn't say we "should", but on numerous occasions expressed indifference as long as we get the bad guys. And you deffinition of innocents is obviously different than mine. You seem OK with bombing a city back to the stone age because some its citizens cheered after 9/11.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Mayor: Now Drebin, I don't want any trouble like you had on the South Side like last year. That's my policy. Frank: Well, when I see five weirdos dressed in togas, stabbing a man in the middle of the park in front of a full view of 100 people, I shoot the bastards. That's MY policy. Mayor: That was a Shakesphere In The Park Production of Julius Caesar, you moron! You killed five actors! Good ones!
Originally Posted By dshyates <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/15/gitmo.tapes/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/...dex.html</a> This story doesn't break my heart.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I don't know quite what I think on this one. I don't believe in torture, but on the other hand having your sleep repeatedly interrupted or having panties stuck on your head doesn’t seem all that bad to me. I'm not even sure I'd term it torture. Harassment, yes. Torture, I'm not so sure. I know I'd certainly prefer that to having jumper cables from a car battery attached to my scrotum. << We put our military in danger by making them subjects of potential torture. >> Sorry, but I just can't buy that one. Do you think an enemy that will behead non-combatant civilian contractors will give a rip whether or not the U.S. practices torture? Do you think they would believe that we didn't torture even it we truly did not? They are going to do whatever they want regardless of what we do. I do tend to think you folks are forgetting about who we are dealing with here. These guys do not run their cell meetings using "Roberts Rules of Order".
Originally Posted By barboy //A few Moslems take solace in the concepts of jihad/// Far more than just a 'few'--- better to visit Indonesia and southern Philippines and you'll understand.
Originally Posted By DAR <<or having panties stuck on your head doesn’t seem all that bad to me.>> It depends who said panties belong to.
