Originally Posted By dshyates doesn't So we made him cry. Big deal. Sleep Deprivation. Big Deal. Now if in fact there are scars from torture that is a different story. And as best I can tell he is a Canadian citizen and was questioned by Canadians. I believe that you can use strong interrogation techniques that don't cross in the relm of torture. Sleep Deprivation, at least to me, doesn't cross into torture.
Originally Posted By mele It's not that current terrorists will hear news of our torturing of prisoners and then respond in kind. It's about the fact that it gives more ammo to terrorists and they will use it to recruit *more* terrorists. Some of us refuse to let terrorists change what we believe is right or wrong. We don't want to be manipulated into becoming terrorists ourselves. That's the difference here. Everytime we react and behave like them, we just make them stronger. You make their cause stronger. Sure, you hurt one member, but you make the rest of them stronger. No way do you make them weaker. They don't give a crap about human suffering, even if their "friends" are the ones suffering. They only care about causing more damage and by becoming like them, we give them what they want. We're ingesting their poison. They love that there are some of who are willing to abandon our ideals. That's the whole point. Bring down America. Killing Americans made America stronger in the long run but financially breaking America and getting America to look bad to the rest of the world...that's way better than just a handful of dead bodies and building rubble. We'd do better to prove to the world that we are above terrorists, not just like them. This "kill the enemy at any cost" line of thinking is no different from theirs. They feel as justified for their beliefs as you do yours, DAR.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 what part in all this does the fact that most of us here view torture as wrong in virtually any scenario, and likely is the majority of the American public, and weview this as noble and civilized while those who practice terrorism view this as our key 'weakness' and why they don't believe we can really confront them and defeat them ? just asking....
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>while those who practice terrorism view this as our key 'weakness'<< I don't know that they believe that. In fact, I think part of their aim is to lead us to do things that will harm our image, to make us hypocrites in preaching one thing and doing another. Look, I get the hatred of terrorists. But I think us acting in unpredictable ways is what most confounds terrorists. From a purely PR level, it makes it that much harder to recruit nutballs when we act in fair and decent ways with captives. Our freedoms, our ability to think beyond the confines of a hateful bastardization of a religion, our ability to do what is right even when we have been mistreated -- these are the things they can't ever understand or do anything about. And it screws up their campaign of anti-Americanism like nothing else. But it takes patience and resolve to hold to those higher principles.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Tell me what makes a larger positive impact on Muslims: A. Us stepping up and being the largest provider of aid following the tsunami, in spite of the hateful things said about us being the Great Satan and so forth or B. Humiliating images from Abu Ghraib Which of those two images is the more powerful image in winning hearts and minds? Which of those two things feeds into the hatred of the US more? Which of those two things can be used as a propaganda tool against us most effectively?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Although we got widespread blame for B, I don't remember ever getting much recognition for A.
Originally Posted By dshyates "Although we got widespread blame for B, I don't remember ever getting much recognition for A." Really? I remember us being he first people that Gov'ts turn to when a disaster strikes. And I remember the BBC giving a lot of attention to the efforts of H.W. and Willy when they went to help.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And I remember the BBC giving a lot of attention to the efforts of H.W. and Willy when they went to help.>> Oh yeah. We got press. Lots of it. Bad press. <<The deadly 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake will be remembered for decades to come. More than 200,000 people were killed by the ensuing tsunami and an additional 1.5 million were displaced. The combined total human, environmental, and economic impact will have economists debating this for years to come. Fortunately, the humanitarian response was even greater. Generous countries and individuals all over the world donated food, money, and other forms of aid to the ravaged areas; the amount of aid donated was in the billions of dollars. A notable exception, though, was North America, specifically the United States. Following the disaster, the United States pledged a meager $15 million. After UN Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs Jan Egeland reportedly stated that charitable contributions by some rich countries were disgraceful, the United States pledged another $20 million. At a time when Norway and Australia, were pledging around $1 billion each, all that the United States, the world's only superpower, would muster up was a pathetic $35 million. However, in large part due to public pressure, the United States finally gave in and started making a difference with a commitment of $500 million.>> Source: <a href="http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/10301/a_look_at_the_united_states_response.html" target="_blank">http://www.associatedcontent.c...nse.html</a>
Originally Posted By dshyates I'm not sure who this Assoc. Content is. But here is something from the BBC. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4281627.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sou...1627.stm</a>
Originally Posted By ElKay Hey all, it's been a long time. I'd like to remind DAR two quotes by great American patriots: "Those who would trade liberty for security deserves neither." AND "It's not about who THEY ARE, it's about who WE ARE." The first quote was from Benjamin Franklin on speaking about those in the Continental Congress (and the rest of the pre-nation) on the perils of easy knee-jerk responses to the threats the rebels faced against the threats to the American movement. Can anyone guess who the second quote is from? It was in response to the reports of the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib. How about it DAR? Ring any bells? Hint: this patriot suffered torture at the hands of merciless captors bent on breaking all known standards of humanity and the rules of warfare. This patriot who never broke at the hands of his captors nevertheless overcame his hatred and was a driving force in the resumption of diplomatic and economic ties between the US and our former foe. So DAR did the hint help? Yep, it was John McCaine. Don't you feel foolish for all the blather you've spouted on this topic?
Originally Posted By DAR Abu Ghraib was a problem because we did round up many innocent people and that was wrong and shameful. There are very few innocents at Guantanamo. <<Don't you feel foolish for all the blather you've spouted on this topic?>> No but thanks for your concern.
Originally Posted By dshyates "There are very few innocents at Guantanamo." As I said earlier, the estimate stands at 36. Thats 36 folks that need to allowed to go home to their families.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Abu Ghraib was a problem because we did round up many innocent people<< That wasn't why Abu Ghraib was a problem.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<There are very few innocents at Guantanamo>> And just how do you know that? What proof do you have to back up that claim?
Originally Posted By DAR Let's get back to who was "tortured" Bin Laden's driver. You know Osama Bin Laden head of Al Qaeda. The guy responsible for 9/11. Bin Laden's driver was also a member of Al Qaeda. A terrorist organization. They like to kill innocent people. They hate the West. They'd like to kill us. They hate Jewish people and would like to see all of them eliminated too. Let's try not to forget these things.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder DAR, do you understand what McCain was getting at when he said: "It's not about who THEY ARE, it's about who WE ARE." Moreover, think again about what I asked you before along the lines of doing something for someone when they were screaming at you- the same principle applies here, except exponentially. The resolve of terrorists who have been captured usually gets strengthened when tortured. Even McCain says that's what happened to him. He thought of new ways to screw with his captors. This is why cliches such as "you get more bees with honey exist", and why police interrogators are taught to conduct their questioning in way that develops a rapport with the suspect. Rarely do you reliable information from someone that's tortured.
Originally Posted By DAR I don't care about getting information. I care about seeing these people suffer. Surely none of you mind seeing a terrorist getting his ass handed to him.
