Originally Posted By gadzuux I care about my country - including it's military. And I come from a military family. Am I cynical? Absolutely - and with good reason. Do I "not care" about our military? Of course I do.
Originally Posted By DAR <<for high-level Qaeda prisoners>> Again Al Qaeda prisoners. Why am I supposed to feel sympathy for these people? I just don't get it.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I know you don't. Once again - it's not about them, it's about us. We define who we are as a people, not them. And if we engage in senseless brutality, we're no better than them. See?
Originally Posted By Mr X Of course he does. Everyone does. Everyone in their right mind hates them. How do you feel about torture as a form of punishment for legitimate POW's in American hands, Dar?
Originally Posted By DAR <<Of course he does. Everyone does. Everyone in their right mind hates them.>> Then there shouldn't be any discussion on on we treat them. <<How do you feel about torture as a form of punishment for legitimate POW's in American hands, Dar?>> If they fall under the standards of the Geneva Convention then they should be treated humanely. Members of Al Qaeda DO NOT fall under those standards.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Members of Al Qaeda DO NOT fall under those standards.<< So, you have said you don't care about torturing them to get info. Just as punishment. And that's a very emotional argument, but logically, what would it accomplish? If we are going to be torturing people who wish to do us harm, if it's done in secret, it does no good. If it is to put fear into our enemies not to mess with us, then we'd have to broadcast the torture to be sure that they got the message. In the meantime, of course, we'll look terrible to our selves, our allies. There isn't anything brave or inspiring in seeing a prisoner getting the crap beat out of him, no matter who it is. It wouldn't reflect well on us as a nation, nor the military, nor our allies. What you have to consider is that at one level, terrorists hope and pray that we will act in barbaric ways. It helps them spread their message, helps portray US as the bad guys. You may be fine with sinking to their level. I'm not. My life was impacted by 9/11 in a peripheral way. It caused great harm to my dad's company, cost him his job of 39 years. His "retirement" was brief, he died this past September. So, yeah, I get the hate. Everyone does. But we're still the good guys, and that means we have to maintain a certain code of ethics that the bad guys don't. It's what separates us from them.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Then there shouldn't be any discussion on on we treat them.*** Why? Because you said so? <<How do you feel about torture as a form of punishment for legitimate POW's in American hands, Dar?>> **If they fall under the standards of the Geneva Convention then they should be treated humanely.** Actually, they do. You should read up on the Geneva Convention if you're going to cite it. In particular, the Geneva Convention specifically REJECTS the neo-con concept of "Enemy Combatant" in plain language. ***Members of Al Qaeda DO NOT fall under those standards.*** But they do. That's the point.
Originally Posted By DAR <<There isn't anything brave or inspiring in seeing a prisoner getting the crap beat out of him, no matter who it is. >> Sure it is. It means that member of Al Qaeda can't harm another innocent person.
Originally Posted By DAR <<You may be fine with sinking to their level. I'm not. >> We're not sinking to anyone's level. We're sending a message to these people that you cannot terrorize innocent people.
Originally Posted By mele <<We're sending a message to these people that you cannot terrorize innocent people.>> Doubtful that that is the message they're receiving and even more doubtful that this is the message anyone else is getting either. The message you're talking about is a figment of your imagination.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Just veering a little, while reading this I was struck with a thought (doesn't happen often). I was wondering what the difference was between wars we have become involve with in recent times and the past ones like WWI or WWII or, for that matter, even our Revolutionary War. Does anyone really think that the rules of "civilized" war were followed closely back then. I wasn't here for it but, my guess is that they weren't. The difference is that the press wasn't involved to the extent it is now and even if it was, they had enough sense and discretion to know that lives would be lost and wars would be lost if we were to look to deeply into it. Is it more humane to shoot someones leg off and leave them to bleed to death than it is to cause another discomfort and pain in an effort to get information that might potentially prevent the loss of life to hundreds, maybe even thousands? The first example is of a sanctioned, "civil" outcome of combat. Not defined as torture. They did not turn out any less dead, however or have any less pain! Having been in a war, I can tell you that having your hands tied will not shorten the event. All it will shorten is the lives of many more than necessary. I advocate whatever means required to protect ourselves from those that will willingly kill us because of our life style all the while hiding behind, what they feel, is a shield of Religious justification. If you go to work and all your employer provides is enough equipment for you to only do half your job, all the while insisting that you do it completely, you will fail. So will we. I don't see Iraq as a justifiable war at this point. What we supposedly started out to do is remove Saddam from power. If you can believe the pictures, he will no longer be a problem. Mission accomplished, leave and let them have their country back. Terrorism, well that's a whole different ball game. Any sign of fear or intimidation will be seen as a weakness. We then become a target, an easy target for further attacks that they are assured will have no negative results for them. You can throw as much, turn the other cheek, talk around as you like, this is the real world. We sit sheltered in our urban or suburban fortresses and pretend to know and understand the evils of the world around us. We do not. It is OK to have high ideals, but, ideals do not always fit the situations. There are no better or worse sides in a deadly conflict. Both parties do the same thing...kill people! There are only winners and losers...I want to be on the winning side because losing is way to costly.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You can throw as much, turn the other cheek, talk around as you like, this is the real world.*** Who the heck is throwing around "turn the other cheek"? I sure ain't. I want to see those scumbags fry. I'd just prefer it if we stuck to international standards of conduct so we don't come off looking like the second coming of fascism.
Originally Posted By Mr X Again, Dar, it's not about being worried about "those people", it's about the precedent such an activity would set. It really is Naziesque, in the sense that if it's okay to torture THOSE scumbags (because they're subhuman anyway right?), then it's simply a matter of degrees before we're torturing (for example) Iranian regular soldiers once we invade there because the information the possess is vital or whatever. Are you okay with going down that particular road? And that, in particular, is why the international community has outlawed torture IN ALL CASES.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 (gad) <<It increases the danger to our own military.>> (DAR) <You never once cared about our military. So don't act like you have.> As gadzuux himself pointed out, you really had no cause to say that, DAR.
Originally Posted By Mr X Belligerence, apparently. Dar thinks it's okay to say whatever he (she?) wants to say on this matter, and believes that anyone who contradicts him (her?) for any reason is obviously an idiot who wishes to hug and forgive all the terrorists, refuses to support the troops, and generally sucks as a human being.
Originally Posted By DAR But how is treating them with the humane approach going to work? None of you can guarantee that if we treat these "people" (it sickens me to write that)with decency that everything will suddenly change. That they're going to be our friends. You cannot guarantee that.
