Originally Posted By bean Just out of curiousity... if the land was completely stripped of the movies characters but built practically the same. The three attractions based on just cars in general would that change peoples opinion just because it had no characters? Would it make the attractions anymore signifcant? so basically Desert landscape, idealized conceptions of real buildings found on route 66 wrapped around three unique attractions minus characters from movie. reason i ask is because i have heard some arguements in regards some of the attractions. For example the silly symphonies attraction. Some people are upset because it has the character overlay. How would the attraction be anymore signifcant if it was just themed to a victorian swinger? How does adding story to it with some artistic interpretations in the design make it any more insignificant? Maybe i am misunderstanding something but it sounds like some people would be more forgiving if the swinger was just a plain victorian swinger but detest the attraction because it has a vintage character on it. Would RSR be anymore thrilling if it did not have show scenes or if they were of generic little towns and cars? The landscaping would not change much since it is practically being built to replicate the desert environment. Would the apreciation or fun factor of thunder mountain change if for some reason some references to a movie were added? Its just a question guys, i say this because i know some will get very defensive. i think it would be easier to understand the arguement better than just saying it sucks or i will not like it because i hated the movie or it sucks because it has characters.
Originally Posted By Mort2 Disney characters do not make or break an attraction. Rather it is the attraction's ability to tell a compelling story that is the key. The prime example of this is Pirates, both pre- and post-Sparrow. They both work because of the attraction's compelling story line. Haunted Mansion works for the same reason, as does, to a somewhat lesser extent for my taste, Splash Mountain.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster bean: "Its just a question guys, i say this because i know some will get very defensive. i think it would be easier to understand the arguement better than just saying it sucks or i will not like it because i hated the movie or it sucks because it has characters." Any one of these additions is just fine for what it is. But the amount of toon-based stuff is pretty ridiculous. 1) A giant Mickey face on the Sun Wheel along with characters on each of its gondolas. 2) A large Mickey Mouse figure standing atop the new cartoon-covered swing ride. 3) All midway games are going to be cartoon based. 4) The massive new Little Mermaid attraction. 5) An entire land themed to a single animated film. (not even ToonTown does that) 6) An elaborate nighttime spectacular featuring, wait for it, cartoon characters. 7) There have been proposals to make the Maliboomer a Toy Story-based parachute ride and California Screamin' into a Villains ride. 8) This past summer a massive new attraction based on the cartoon Toy Story was built. Yeah, I know there are a few things that aren't cartoon based like the entrance plaza and the beer garden. But still. Is there no creativity left at WDI?
Originally Posted By cheesybaby ^^ Not so fast. They still have plenty of time to tie a toon into the Beer Garden. My money's on Pete (Peg-Leg, not Stinky).
Originally Posted By bean Oh I understand that Churromaster and I see that side of the arguement. At the moments the plans do seem like they are all cartoon based. Luckily there will be others that will not. Creativity is not lost in WDI its just that sometimes some things make sense financially for the company. Pixar movies are a huge source fo income at the moment. what i found interesting is that i have seen some comments from people in a few sites that actually place the whole success or creativity of an attraction based on whether it has characters or not. I have even seen someone comment that a couple of the attraction are off the shelve cheap attraction only because they have a character overlay on it. Attractions like Luigi's and Mater which to be fair are going to be highly themed attractions that in no way shape or form are attractions that you would find in any amusement park. So it made me think, what if Luigi's was stripped from its CARS theme and built in tomorrowland with a simple space theme. Would that change this persons way of thinking same attraction no characters
Originally Posted By cheesybaby bean - jonvn said it best. It's not that toons are bad, per se. They have their place (Toontown or Fantasyland). But once they spread into other themed areas, all the themed areas become the same, and the variety that set WDI's work apart is destroyed. Everything becomes the same. When you eat a salad, do you add tomatoes to the lettuce, and then olives and peppers and onions and mushrooms and meat and dressing? Or do you add lettuce to your lettuce, and then add more lettuce and more lettuce and then top it off with lettuce? I like lettuce. But I much prefer a salad.
Originally Posted By Britain I think the fear Jonvn and others espouse is that Disneyland is no longer a place to imagine you have actually traveled back in time to various points in history. His complaint dates back to '79 with Big Thunder. Authenticity was beginning to give way to the more fantastical. Thunder was the first, more subtle offense. Splash Mountain was the second and more explicit offense. We literally entered a cartoon IN Frontierland for the very first time. Externally, the landscape was more contrived than before ("Really? A dead tree right on top of a cave entry..with a waterfall.. right at the top of a mountain? Erosion just doesn't work like that!"). Now I think Splash Mountain is great, myself, but I can empathize with the complaint. But in many ways, I think it's just the latest chapter in the "We don't build things the way they used to back in the 50's and 60's" observation. The truth is that intellectual properties, NOT themed environment prowess, is the unique differentiator of the WDC today. Highly themed environments can be found in many non-Disney parks. The experience invented by Disney is becoming commonplace around the world. It is only natural that Disneyland becomes more of a DISNEYland.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "if the land was completely stripped of the movies characters but built practically the same. The three attractions based on just cars in general would that change peoples opinion just because it had no characters? Would it make the attractions anymore signifcant?" Good question. For me the characters are really unnecessary, however, since we know very few details about this attraction it's kind of hard to say if another version would be "better" to the general public. With that said, in my opinion a race car type ride through the California desert would be awesome if done in a clever, entertaining way.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <At the moments the plans do seem like they are all cartoon based. Luckily there will be others that will not.> I'm really looking forward to hearing about them.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney << if the land was completely stripped of the movies characters but built practically the same. The three attractions based on just cars in general would that change peoples opinion just because it had no characters? Would it make the attractions anymore signifcant?>> Good question and I think people have answered it well already, but it really does have less to do with characters in general and just respecting the theme of the place. AGAIN, if DCA meant Disney's Character Adventures, no one would blink an eye, it's adherring to the thematic elements of the place. I think what bothers most people and me especially is that you have a theme, it's called CALIFORNIA and yet not a single ride, show or land has represented that theme in any real serious way since opening. It just proves to me the theme is more of a hazard than something that is inspirational or motivating since no one can find a way to build an attraction based S.F. in the '60s or a land that focuses mission area's of Calif. when people are too busy on trying to figure out how to stick Woody and Wall E in there instead. Again, the theme is obviously a failure, why cant they just admit it? When DCA rolled around in 2001, the ONLY place that remotely represented theme charaters was HPB, where they fit. PP didnt have a single character based attraction anywhere. Fast forward 7 years later and now? Characters are now in every area of the park minus GRR and with Carsland now coming it basically will seal the parks fate that it has gone from a park about REALISTIC and an adult themed approach of California to basically a now toon inspired fantasy version of California. I'm almost surprised the new entrance didn't get The Incredibles city approach everyone was joking about before. The tooning up approach has simply got out of hand, not just in DCA but Disney in general, although yes, DCA seems to be the worst culprit of it now. Dont get me wrong, I'm EXCITED about the additions and at the end of the day, I care more about well themed, innovative and original attractions first, being cartoon based or not second. But man, tell someone at WDI to slow down the Pixar craziness!
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "PP didnt have a single character based attraction anywhere." I believe the carousel has always been themed to The Little Mermaid and King Triton. It's barely a theme (similar to what's being done to the Sun Wheel and Orange Stinger), but there sure is a big creepy mural of Triton that you ride past half a dozen times during your trip. "Characters are now in every area of the park minus GRR..." Don't forget about the Brother Bear show over in the Redwood Creek Chalange Trail. It's not technically GRR, but as a part of the Grizzly Peak Recreation Area, I'd say it's close enough. : )
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt Again, the theme is obviously a failure, why cant they just admit it?" Because that is your opinion. The fact is that the overarching theme of "California" is still intact. Why, for instance, would they redesign the entrance in a way the enhances the theme if the California storyline had been tossed aside? Look at the stuff they are doing at PP. All the new overlays are adding more detail to the California Seaside theme that's already there.
Originally Posted By bean thanks for the answer everyone i especially like the way you explained it in your answer WorldDisney. It pretty much sums up what I thought people were trying to convey in their response to some of the additions but they might have been expressing themselves incorrectly.
Originally Posted By ArchtMig >>>But man, tell someone at WDI to slow down the Pixar craziness!<<< I don't think it's WDI that's driving this. It's the Igers and the Rasulos and maybe the top one or two suits at WDI that give the rank and file Imagineers their marching orders. I'm sure the creatives at the level of Tony Baxter and below could think up other ideas than just Toon based, and would jump at the opportunity if they would be allowed to. But I think that a situation such as Tony Baxter and his team proposing a Nemo retheme to the submarines is purely driven by two motives: 1) How do we get the top execs to agree to fund saving the submarines, and 2) What kind of attractions are we going to have to keep proposing to the top executives so we can keep our jobs and still have a hand in creating new attractions.
Originally Posted By ArchtMig >>>The fact is that the overarching theme of "California" is still intact. Why, for instance, would they redesign the entrance in a way the enhances the theme if the California storyline had been tossed aside? Look at the stuff they are doing at PP. All the new overlays are adding more detail to the California Seaside theme that's already there.<<< I agree with all of that in regard to the area retheming in those two "lands". But it sure seems like all the new and proposed attractions have very little, if any, connection to "California". Or some sort of contrived BS link such as "the classic Disney characters can now be found roaming DCA because they are on 'vacation' in California". It all makes me so curious for the future regarding whether they keep the name of the park intact or not. It's easier to justify having stuff that's "California" in a park that is more generically themed, than it is justifying stuff that has no relation to California being plunked in a park that is supposed to be so specifically themed to "California". I still think it was a blunder to tie a park to such a narrow specific theme. Not to say that you can't fill a park full of *good* attractions that are specifically "California" based if you try to. But that's not what Disney is all about these days. Buena Vista Street and Paradise Pier enhancements notwithstanding, I still vote for getting rid of the "California" reference in the name of the park. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out over the next few years.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney "Again, the theme is obviously a failure, why cant they just admit it?" <<Because that is your opinion. The fact is that the overarching theme of "California" is still intact. Why, for instance, would they redesign the entrance in a way the enhances the theme if the California storyline had been tossed aside? Look at the stuff they are doing at PP. All the new overlays are adding more detail to the California Seaside theme that's already there.>> Yes, I agree with ALL that Hans, my real point in all of this is that it's less about keeping California 'intact' and more about too lazy or too expensive overrehauling the entire theme and why its even there. Yes, they did an overlay of PP, because, shocker, no one wants to front the money to bulldoze the thing, no brainer there. But yes, the theme of California seems to be a complete failure when NONE of the the past rides or shows has represented that in any way, that's my point in all of this. They are keeping it California because the lands are there, but in terms of all the additions, its obviously saying the focus is on fantasy and animation. Look at that preview center, it looks like DL 2.0 instead of anything about Calif. Hell, why is TLM even there then?? Is it because they forgotten about attracitons such as Soarin Calif. and Golden Dreams as REAL representations of the theme or do they not think that people would be interested in a Calif. themed attraction? Seriously, which is it? In fact, I would say if Soarin over Calif wasnt there on day one but pushed off to 'phase two', it wouldve never gotten there period. The focus is on everything BUT California, I dont understand how people can look at the last 20 additions (from Millionaire to Carsland in 2012, yes, its will THAT many since 2001 when everything is done) and only ONE addition has scraped the theme, TOT. The only other one is yes, the entrance which as I said before is nice, but its presented more as another Main St. type entrance than anything integral to the California theme. It ties into DCA well, dont get me wrong, but its still nothing more than an entrance. We are just lucky Walt came to L.A. ;D. But the additional shows, land, rides or all speaking a different message and anything BUT California. NONE of it is reinforcing the theme except the entrance and sadly they are not even TRYING to fit much of the theme anymore. TLM and RCR belongs in DL or MGM not PP!! But I have a feeling, if they were given an additional half of billion, California would be gone, all of it.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<thanks for the answer everyone i especially like the way you explained it in your answer WorldDisney. It pretty much sums up what I thought people were trying to convey in their response to some of the additions but they might have been expressing themselves incorrectly.>> No problem Bean, just happy people understand my insane rants ;D. Now, I hope you pass it along to the boys at Disney, even if its just to call me names and throw things ;D.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Hey, Channel 7 here in Sydney is now showing Toy Story 1 and 2 back to back. I'm watching now....just thought I share ;D.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Just ended, wow those films are just great!!! Classics!! Bring on Toy Story 3 Woohoo!!! Okay, funs over and back to business, who else needs to be reminded they are a complete and utter M-O-R-O-N around here .
Originally Posted By bean 77 NEW! WorldDisney Fri 10/24/2008 11:59p <<thanks for the answer everyone i especially like the way you explained it in your answer WorldDisney. It pretty much sums up what I thought people were trying to convey in their response to some of the additions but they might have been expressing themselves incorrectly.>> "No problem Bean, just happy people understand my insane rants ;D. Now, I hope you pass it along to the boys at Disney, even if its just to call me names and throw things ;D. Oh we already do that LOL
