Originally Posted By dshyates "the point being missed here is that the damn stimulus should spend every last red cent helping the damn economy recover. We are putting it through because we are in a crisis -- " But you don't see the Repubs complaining about the useless tax cuts the Dems put in to get their votes, and didn't get the votes anyway.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 it's not the pols I am criticizing for not seeing the forest for the trees however it's people here. We should have more sense... of course the Dem's want their pork and the GOP wants their tax cuts -- that's what they do... we as taxpayers though should not be supporting either.....we should be demanding every damn dime goes to fix the economy now - not 10 years from now, or theoretically, or any money to anything that doesn't have a cause-effect now---isn't that what the 'stimulus' package is supposed to be?
Originally Posted By hopemax I've noticed during this stimulus discussion, that certain professions are perceived as "better" than others. It seems like creating blue collar jobs, like construction is seen as more "worthy." OTOH, scientists make pretty decent money...money that can be used to spend on the big ticket items like cars and especially houses. I'm not sure which is better for recovery in this current situation. Is it better to do something that employs 10 people, but those 10 people won't have much discretionary income. It would probably help, down the line for some retail, and restaurants. Or is it better to do something that employs 5 people, but those 5 people will have the ability to do something major like buy a home. If housing is a major component of our troubles, than maybe stimulus money should go to the people in the best position to purchase homes, as a result? Also, a construction job will only last until the project is finished, while the scientist job seems like it would be more permanent? I would think creating a permanent job would be preferred than a temporary one.
Originally Posted By dshyates As I mentioned before. I wish they had tackled this in 2 parts. The first (in emergency mode) be NOTHING but direct Stimulus/ Personal Relief. Tax Cuts on families, food stamps, and infrastructure like stuff. After that they could ALL sit down to a GOP Style Pork Barbecue for all I care. The thing that I find SO interesting it that the GOP seems to really have NO solutions except tax cuts. To the point that it has become like an OCD manta. And they way they want to apply them is like they are TOTALLY brainwashed into believing that they would actually work. If I hear one more time that corporate tax cuts creates jobs, I think they should be committed. You give a tax cut to a company that just gave a multi-million $$$ bonus to the CEO, ISN'T going to create jobs. It will create Executive Junkets. Most of these companies at this point have boatloads on back stocked inventory. Why in God's name would they hire more workers to make more product when they are on hold at making more product? Corporate tax breaks is a good way to continue going a growing economy, it is NOT a way to turn around a sinking/shrinking economy. It is the most basic economic law of supply and demand. We have TONS/ Boatloads/ warehouses of supply. There in no demand right now. So addressing the supply side is well crazy. I just don't get the GOP. Obama is giving tax breaks to 95% of Americans and they hate it. They HATE that he wants to raise taxes on the upper echelon AND hate that he wants to give a break to the working class. Seriously, WTF is their problem.
Originally Posted By hopemax Or to put it another way, this crisis is slicing through many sectors, and income levels. The stimulus shouldn't just be about providing opportunity for construction, preserving jobs in police/fire, and of course, bailing out the bankers. I'm assuming that using our favorite example... volcano monitoring, also requires high tech equipment, so not only would a scientist be theoretically helped out, but so would the company that manufactures the high tech equipment.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The amount of money being spent on volcano monitoring is NOT $140 million. That's part of the problem here -- the GOP cherry picks things, puts them out of context or distorts the figure to paint the whole thing as lunacy, and some people seem to take the bait without questioning. I'm sure some projects in the package are better than others in terms of having an immediate impact. But the point of the thing is to pump money into the economy while doing important work. We constantly b***h and moan about how other countries are passing us in science and tech, and yet when a relatively small amount is actually invested in science and tech-related things, people come unglued and dismiss it as irrelevant waste that "we can't afford right now." Roads are great. They're important. But they're only part of a solid infrastructure.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I know several people who work in tech-related fields, most of them conservative types. It drives them up the wall when their party goes off on these simplistic anti-technology rats that seem lifted from decades ago. What's wrong with the GOP is that the grownups need to take control of it again. It's still dominated by the same people that have essentially painted it into an ever smaller region of the country. It frustrates me that this Palin-Jindal-baby talk wing of the party is still the dominant voice of the GOP.
Originally Posted By hopemax I wish random thoughts would come in my head, before I posted my last post, now I'm starting to feel like I'm spamming. As a country, we should invest in high tech things. But it seems like if it's not defense related, it comes off as frivolous and unnecessary to a lot of people. But that doesn't mean it is frivolous and unnecessary. And looking back at the list Josh posted about questionable projects, I wanted to comment about one thing... >$190,000 Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, WY for digitizing and editing the Cody collection. Barbara Cubin is the sponsor< During the Depression as part of the WPA, people were put to work indexing and organizing naturalization records, and other records of historical significance. It provided employement to thousands of unemployed lawyers, teachers, clerks, etc. The indexes were microfilmed and over the years have been made available to genealogical researches. And now, in my spare time, through Ancestry.com's World Archives Project, I am working on transcribing those microfilmed records into a digital database. It is far past, when any economic aspect of that original project would be felt, but from a spiritual/heartfelt aspect, I am so grateful that people were put to work on doing the original indexing. Generations to come will benefit from having access to this information.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Then they need to find a new base. There's a huge amount of people in the GOP that feel abandoned by the party as it currently exists. The party once appealed to moderates, as Obama does now.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 We constantly b***h and moan about how other countries are passing us in science and tech, and yet when a relatively small amount is actually invested in science and tech-related things, people come unglued and dismiss it as irrelevant waste that "we can't afford right now." I've worked in the high tech industry for 30+ years so I don't fit the anti tech mode.... I view this very simply. Yes I agree we need tech upgrades to compete- long term. We needscientific groups like those involved in volcanos.I don't necessarily believe blue collar jobs are more important to fix today then white collar ( self preservation alone would influence that) - so trying to pigeonhole anyone who questions the stumulis plan just doesn't work -- it is this simple for me: We are in crisis mode we are told every second of every day because we drove the proverbial bus off the cliff. Hell ,I'll even go along with the blue kool aid crowd and say the GOP was driving the bus.. so all we hear is we have to fixin yesterday- not tomorrow - or the week after. Nowis not the time to throw outech gaps between us andsome countries. We've losing 1/2 to 3/4 million jobs every damn month.- so yes - putting thousands of workers back to work - with incomes - off assistance - buying groceries IS more important today than worrying about doesSouth Korea have moreengineers in school than we have.There is plenty of time for that when we pull the damn bus out of the ditch people. For some reason when someone tries to make sense out ofthis - any criticism of the stimulus package becomes personal IMHO. move past that and let'sfocus on the here and now before it gets any worse. putting ANY of that money into long term - low job yield programs is not priority 1 today. It makes me think of the Jimmy John's commercials where the guy is upside down in his car after a wreck ( or in the bank during an amed hold up) and they call the sandwhichshop instead of 911. Yes they need to eat, eventually it will be important - but their priorities are screwed up. Either we are in micro management crisis mode or we're not....I believe approval for this amount of money is because we are...and I agree that we are.
Originally Posted By dshyates "Then they need to find a new base." I hear they are going after the non college educated inner city "hip-hop" crowd next.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 btw- I totally agree that now is not the time for tax cuts for corps either.. that discussion can be had -- AFTER we pull the bus from the ditch -- if we even can the way we are approaching it
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan so trying to pigeonhole anyone who questions the stumulis plan just doesn't work --<< The person I am pigeonholing is Bobby Jindal and his mocking of this particular item. He's the one who chose the eyerolling, "Ain't that the craziest plum think ya ever heard of?" tone. He could have said "Sure, this is important work, but shouldn't be in this stimulus." He didn't. He chose to portray it as nonsense. It's his mocking tone I don't like. Plus the fact that it is not $140 million for that item. It's a lie.
Originally Posted By avro_imagineer <<>$190,000 Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, WY for digitizing and editing the Cody collection. Barbara Cubin is the sponsor< During the Depression as part of the WPA, people were put to work indexing and organizing naturalization records, and other records of historical significance. It provided employement to thousands of unemployed lawyers, teachers, clerks, etc. The indexes were microfilmed and over the years have been made available to genealogical researches. And now, in my spare time, through Ancestry.com's World Archives Project, I am working on transcribing those microfilmed records into a digital database. It is far past, when any economic aspect of that original project would be felt, but from a spiritual/heartfelt aspect, I am so grateful that people were put to work on doing the original indexing. Generations to come will benefit from having access to this information.>> Actually this could work now. There are many people who are skilled enough to do this. I'm pretty sure everyone who works telemarketing/call centre type jobs are more then skilled enough to do this job, without the bs they have (scripts, transfering to another department because they aren't allowed to do something etc). My idea was along similar lines but restoring old TV/Movies (an interest of mine ), these jobs could be added to the economy and provide a nice "reward" at the end.
Originally Posted By hopemax And aside from a general disdain for science...everyone is "more infrastructure!" Infrastructure is all well and good, but governmental entities have back-burnered infrastructure projects for so long that I question how long it will be until projects can actually be started. There will be some, but not in the volume that people want to see. Feasibility, and impact studies need to be done, designs need to be approved. vbdad wants speed, and I'm not sure infrastructure is the "speediest" way to get people back to work. Seattle has been arguing over how to replace its Alaskan Way viaduct since the mid-1990s when they were told it was nearing end-of-life. An earthquake in 2001, further damaged the roadway. And they still are nowhere near a consensus on what to do with it. This is the 2nd major north-south route through the city, certain vehicles aren't allowed to travel it at all, and buses & trucks can only use the right lane. I assume it's the same in cities across the country. Some of these smaller projects may be exactly the "shovel ready" projects that are needed.
Originally Posted By dshyates Firt, fix all the bridges that aren't up to code. That shouldn't take long to ready, and will get construction workers, steel workers, coal miners, and trucking cranking right off the bat.
