Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <There's no way I can prove it, but my guess is the average person visiting WDW never notices or really doesn't care.> I think that's a disservice to 'average people.' People know the difference. 'They' are much smarter than 'they' might appear.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I think that's a disservice to 'average people.' People know the difference. 'They' are much smarter than 'they' might appear.>> No, I doubt the vast majority of them do. People going to WDW with their kids today weren't even alive when Disneyland opened. Most parents of young children today weren't even alive when WDW opened. For many people WDW is the WDW they see today. They have no history with the park so there is nothing to compare it to. And seeing as how year after year attendance at WDW increases, they must like what they see. That doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your opinion because of course you are. I just don't know if that opinion is shared by terribly many people today.
Originally Posted By MPierce I meant no disrespect to the average guest, I just feel like RoadTrip does. Most folks go to WDW very little in their lifetime. The vast malority of people who go there aren't devoted fans who read everything they can get their hands on about Disney. They just won't notice, not because they are stupid, but because they or caught up in their vacation. I think quite a few people have said they don't look at the Swan, and Dolphin as sight pollution. I bet most people on this board have an opinion about it. Nobody'd wrong or right, it's just opinions. Once again my opinion is the vast majority of guest visiting Epcot don't have an opinion about it, because they either don't notice or they don't care one way or the other.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> I think it is rather presumptuous << Perhaps -- but's it's interesting speculation, is it not? Makes for spirited discussion.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Then why does Disney bother with quality year after year? Or 'Attention to Detail'? Because people do notice. They may not walk into the park and specifically say 'Hey, the Dolphin and Swan are causing a visual intrustion on the World Showcase pavilions,' but 'they' know the difference in Disney quality, or why do they come back year after year? For the nicely themed restrooms? They come back because they feel that they had a quality experience, where the place is fresh and clean and they had an experience they couldn't get anywhere else. And yes, that includes good design and attention to detail. This discussion about 'visual instrusions' reminds me of the one about Grizzly River Rapids ride in DCA, and the lack of any AA figures that can be found on the route. The argument is that 'Guests on the rafts can't see them anyway, so why bother?' When Big Thunder Railroad is pointed out, it is dismissed as 'The animals don't add anything to the ride.' And to me, if you take out the AA animals on Big Thunder, [which apparently don't make a difference], then why not just take away the whole 'runaway mine train' theme altoghether, and just have it be a steel coaster? Now, there's a rumor that AA animals will be added to Grizzly River Rapids. As well they should, as it's that sort of 'attention to detail' that seperates Disney Theme Parks from the rest. Same with those two hotels that were built to impede the view of World Showcase. Sorry, but that's a design blunder plain and simple. And when major design elements are allowed to slip, it can be a dangerous path to follow. Visual Instrusions are allowed, then 'aw, what the heck, who needs a berm to hide the outside world' and 'eh, AA animals are expensive, guests won't notice...or care' and you end up with a half-baked theme park like 'Disney's California Adventure, or 'Walt Disney Studios Paris.' Follow that notion, and then you have 'aw who needs theme-ed costumes, guests don't notice or care.' etc... That's what I'm crowing about. 'Average People' do notice, and they do care.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy God only knows what Walt himself might have ended up with had he lived another 10 years. Or if he would even have "succeeded" at all. I do feel that as successful as WDW is as we know it, it would have been different in many ways if Walt had been around.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> From what I have heard, the Imagineers were adamant that those hotels not be built to intrude on Epcot's skyline, but Eisner overruled them. << That may be true. But I hope you don't mean that to automatically be a bad thing. Like him or not, Michael Eisner may yet be looked back on as someone who did much more good for Disney than many give him credit for. ------------ >> And yes, that includes good design and attention to detail. << I think they continue to do this in the best Disney tradition possible, with the budgets and time frames they are given. The Disney experience was and still IS different from what you get anywhere else. But things change over the years. Are things the same as 20 years ago? Maybe not. But it's still a significant difference. ------------------- Before you go on about this post, I will say that no, I'm not 100% happy with everything that goes on. But you know what? -- I'm still impressed.
Originally Posted By MPierce I'll stand by my post that the average guest does not notice. Also I don't believe 2 themed Hotels on the skyline of World Showcase, can be equated to a complete breakdown of standards like the ones you suggested in your post. The average guest does take notice of how nice things look, and how clean things are, but I just don't thing the Swan, and Dolphin are going to be the demise of Disney standards. Once again only my opinion.
Originally Posted By danyoung >And one of those principles was keeping the outside world out -- that's why they built berms around the parks.< Now, don't tear your hair out on this, but I think seeing the Swan & Dolphin from within Epcot is a far cry from seeing the urban sprawl of Harbor Blvd from within Disneyland. The hotels are STILL ON DISNEY PROPERTY, and have plenty of them to warrant their view from Epcot. Look, I don't dispute that many Imagineers didn't like the intrusion. I'm sure the granddaddy of all the visual arts, John Hench, absolutely hated the placement of the hotels. All I'm saying is that I (a relatively visual person who has made his living as a video editor, and thus knows a thing or three about style and composition) don't have a problem with it. I simply don't see any distinction - my eye sees the Soarin' building and the Eifell Tower and the Dolphin and the tower in Morocco and the Swan as all parts of the same incredible skyline. It's not like I'm seeing McDonald's arches or a big HILTON sign from Main Street. I'm seeing themed elements from within Disney property. >Then why does Disney bother with quality year after year? Or 'Attention to Detail'? Because people do notice.< I agree. And I hate it when Disney cuts down on theming. I simply don't see this one instance as being an example of that.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Like him or not, Michael Eisner may yet be looked back on as someone who did much more good for Disney than many give him credit for." No, I'm not an Eisner hater by any means - in fact, some of my favorite things at WDW were added during Eisner's time there. But, with that said, I do think Eisner was responsible for a horrible change in culture at the Walt Disney Company, and we are going to be seeing the effects of that change for years to come. It's what's lead to some of the things that Jim mentioned in post #106.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> I do think Eisner was responsible for a horrible change in culture at the Walt Disney Company, and we are going to be seeing the effects of that change for years to come. << Maybe so. But who's to say that changes didn't need to be made anyway, whoever had to make them? I'm looking at the reality of things, and as I remember it Disney very nearly went away as we know it in the 1984 time frame. Really. Gone. Kaput. Divided up and sold off. It's quite possible that if things not happened as well as they did back then that we'd all be talking about "the good old days" for real here.
Originally Posted By Daannzzz ""I'll stand by my post that the average guest does not notice."" If the average guest doesn't notice these things...these details, or the lack of the details....why did Disney ever bother with them in in the first place?
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy <why do they come back year after year? For the nicely themed restrooms?> I just got a new shower curtain this week. It's clear with green leaves on it.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 My first trip (1979) to WDW was because my in-laws wanted to take their 5 granddaughters (3 were mine). No way did I want to spend a week watching my girls going round in circles. Disney's attention to details, atmosphere, those things have gotten us back over and over. We're going again next year, hope I don't see it all distorted now from reading whatall you guys have to say.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> If the average guest doesn't notice these things...these details, or the lack of the details....why did Disney ever bother with them in in the first place? << Because Disney was trying to set a very high standard in the theme park industry. How many people can honestly say they noticed everything in the parks after a weeks stay. I know I see things every year that I never noticed before. There is just so much attention to detail going on around you that it becomes where you are lost in it. My only statement was that I don't think the Swan, and Dolphin is an issue with the average guest. I bet if you have a discussion with an Imagineer he'll tell you that most people miss alot of the attention to detail in the parks. Now that's only speculation on my part, but I just think that's the way it is. It just means there's so much of it you can't catch everything that might not be right in your eyes. I don't think most people want to dwell on a negative while they are on vacation unless it is a glaring mistake they are looking at.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I just got a new shower curtain this week. It's clear with green leaves on it. << Congradulations, have any of your house guest noticed yet? Sorry I forgot to mention this in my last post.
