Originally Posted By jdub >><<these are the same people you bump into at the supermarket, on the street or church>> Or sit across from them at Thanksgiving. :-(<< Yikes, mele! You make me grateful for a minuscule family! --though I DID just flash back several decades to the right-wing bigot who truly shaped my liberal, inclusive views.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <vbdad55 I defy you to find one positive thing that I have said on these boards about Obama. So you can shove your condescending crap about Obama worship. And the GOP deserves the drumming they are getting, including Mr. 90% Bush. We don't need to recap the disaster the GOP has been for the past 8 years, but its time the bums were thrown out.< to be summarily dismissed for obviously being too stupid to not vote for Obama is enough right there - as for the shoving comment - again, nice discourse
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < "if you vote Obama, you've just drunk the koolaid - you can't possibly be voting for him because you favor him on the issues or you think he'd do a good job" < sorry - show me one where I used that terminology. Yes I believe some have been sold their opinion,just as some on the GOP side have been sold theirs. I have NEVER stated that all voters for Obama are drinking blue koolaid - you've got the wrong man son. Many people have done their homework and made their decision ( as I have done mine, but obviously since I can't vote for Obama I'm somekind of idiot and get dismissed - read the statement that set me off ) . I have gone out of my way to state the exact reasons I would not vote for Obama - but for me to receive comments like I just did again makes it very hard to maintain that. Read my posts again,I have listed fact upon fact about Obama's ties here in Illinois, his lack of accomplishment here etc-- yet have always maintained that he is a very bright man,I just don't see him as the presidential decision maker we need. Yet for some here that is not enough,I must be blind not to see that Obama is the ONLY way to vote. Trust me I'm not an idiot and have thought things through. I have no problem with Colin Powell saying he thinks Obama is the right choice- I am sure he has thought it through too and I respect himalong- however that alone doesn;t cause me to overlook the last x number of years here I have been aware of Obama's performance. I would love to have seen some of the input if Powell would have supported McCain - doubtful it would be as supportive.
Originally Posted By Mr X If he had laid out his case as convincingly, I'd have been very interested to hear it. What can I say, VB? What Powell said made perfect sense to me. What parts would you disagree with? Or what would you add (beyond your already well documented comments about Illinois politics being a cesspool)?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < GOP bashing sometimes, but not Obama worship. And I'm sure you realize there are millions of Illinoisans who are just as observant and astute as you who will be voting FOR Obama, so simply observing him more closely than us non-Illinoisans isn't quite enough in itself.< Dabob,I know you are much more politically savvy than that - this is a state - run by a city that hasn't elected anyone from the GOP since 1932. So please, if Beelzebub was running on the Democratic ticket in Chicago - he would get 65-75% of the vote because the machine would make sure of it. nationwide the support for Obama is less biased than it is here.... Yes, some here truly believe he is the right guy - and I respect their opinion - but some of the Democrats here who get voted in, it has nothing to do with being able. If they were dead they would win....and that is not an exaggeration, it's the way Chicago politics work. here is an except from NPR: "All Things Considered, February 26, 2007 ยท Ex-felons, and their hopes for redemption, will be on the ballot in Chicago Tuesday, when voters will elect a mayor and other city officials. Four former aldermen who were convicted on public corruption charges while in office have campaigned for their old jobs in an attempt to resurrect their political lives. Two still have that chance; the State Supreme Court ruled the others two ineligible, although their names remain on the city's ballots, which were printed before the decision was rendered. Chicago City hall is a familiar stomping ground for federal prosecutors. Just last month, one of the city's 50 aldermen was indicted. And over the past two decades, at least 18 current or former aldermen have been found guilty of public corruption. Also how the VOTE works here: "At the beginning of 2006, John Stroger was prepared to run for reelection as Cook County Commissioner and as Cook County Board President (two separate positions often held jointly). Stroger, reportedly in poor health, decided to run for reelection to stave off strong opposition campaigns by reformers Michael Quigley and Forrest Claypool (Quigley later dropped out in support of Claypool). Then, only weeks before the Democratic Primary, John Stroger suffered a stroke and disappeared from public view. While the nature of the stroke was not disclosed, Democratic Committeemen turned out the vote and John Stroger received a significant sympathy vote, winning him the primary. Soon after John Stroger won the primary, it was disclosed that he could no longer physically serve in office. A scramble for control of the Board immediately broke out. For some time West Sider Congressman Danny Davis was discussed as a replacement, but ultimately the South Siders won the big prize. West Side County Board Commissioner Bobbie Steele would serve as Interim Board President until December, 7th Ward Alderman and John Stroger confidante William Beavers would take John Stroger's Commissioner seat and Todd Stroger would replace his father on the ticket for Board President. Michelle Harris would replace Todd Stroger as 8th Ward Alderman, and Darcel Beavers would replace her father as 7th Ward Alderman. At stake was the tremendous patronage controlled by the Cook County President's office. As President and 8th Ward Democratic Committeeman, John Stroger directed more African-Americans into government jobs than any other politician in Illinois. Rumored to be in the thousands, 8th Warders in John Stroger's patronage army would hit the streets every election cycle to support his candidates across the South Side and South Suburbs. In the general election for President, faced with a choice between conservative Republican Commissioner, Anthony Peraica and the Democratic machine candidate, Todd Stroger, voters chose Todd, preserving 8th Ward control over County patronage. Soon after the election, John Stroger stepped down as Democratic Committeeman, leaving the position to his son. Today the Stroger patronage army brazenly labels itself with t-shirts emblazoned "Todd Squad".
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <"Powell is voting for a traitor because he is himself a traitor. He has changed sides in this war already years ago." True quote from the link in post 24. These people really and truly believe this stuff. < and I would never support this comment - so how do I get grouped with that ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <That said, I have been posting about conservatives leaving the party, abstaining from voting rather than vote for McCain/Palin and conservatives voting for Obama. I haven't intended that as "Pro Obama," I just have been fascinated by the political science aspect of it. < I'll give you my opinion of the political science of it all for what it's worth. Many in the GOP party have been upset for years about having their party hijacked by the far right...trust me the GOP in Illinois and many midwestern states for instance, has little it anything in common with those stances. Does everyone in the Dem party support the far left ? Of course the answer is no -- there are plenty of moderates out there who subsrcibe to both parties - as well as independents. So for me to have every freakin thread turn into a Bush sucks - the GOP are all evil -- we're getting what we deserve because of W - etc etc -- is getting to be too much to deal with. Someone I guess those of us still looking at McCain are just stupid - the choice is clear - all one has to do is read these threads. This is 1 + 1 = 2. What am I am idiot. Trippy - yep- Idiot too. There could be no possible reason not to vote for Obama...it's just every thread denegrates itself to become that....may not always start out that way - but it ends up there- even the thread X started to 'only' talk about the reasons one would vote for McCain. Some obviously believe they are just smarter than the rest of us.
Originally Posted By mele vbdad, what I see is you being incredibly overly defensive when people aren't really criticizing you. You keep saying people are calling you a neocon (a word rarely used around here these days) and saying that people in WE want all GOPers dead because it would solve our problems. This thread shows that, there are other threads where you do the same. It's weird and over the top. That chip on your shoulder is bigger than the one you're imagining on everyone else's. I'm not saying that people don't have strong views on here but you keep insisting that we're all out to get you when most people haven't said hardly anything to you.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***and I would never support this comment - so how do I get grouped with that ?*** Who said you were?
Originally Posted By Mr X Post 68, my thoughts exactly. Perhaps the whole McCain "guilt by association" angle is rubbing off, and given the fact that there are some real whack-jobs out there supporting McCain (pretty undeniable at this point) VB feels as though he is or will be lumped in with them. Well, you're not VB. Obviously you've given this a lot more thought than those types. However, you must admit that it IS very telling (and embarrassing for your average rational Republican) that what McCain is dishing out is being so hungrily lapped up by such whackadoos. Says a lot about who he cares about attracting to his cause, that's for sure.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <***I would vote for Powell in November - but can't vote for Obama.*** At this point, I think you have just dug in your heels and are being stubborn. For all your talk about Illinois dirty politics and all that, you don't have a problem with McCain and the utter filthy campaign he's run, not to mention someone even more corrupt and dumb in the form of his VP? Doesn't add up. < Also not true - it is not about being stubborn. I have issues with Obama's 'connections here' ( and not the stupid Ayers thing ) - as well as much non-action is his roles here. I have no issue with Obama's patriotism or any of that nonsense,and obviously here is an intelligent guy. Powell has made up his mind to look only at the present - that is his right to assess this any way he wants,I think he's surely earned that right. I don't think any differently of Powell than I did before today - track record to me is important - and neither candidate it clean and crisp inall they've done - but one seems to get a pass- and I'm not sure why. Campaigns are nasty things- I don't like it but having worked on them before ( oh yeah, as part of the Dem party ) - I understand why certain things are done also. Again, don't agree which is why I ran from politics in my mid 20's here... I have issues with Obama's health care solution as well as concern over future taxes....again dismissed here by some as not wanting to somehow contribute my fair share - which is amazing with the taxes I pay every year... so no matter what the reason I have issues with Obama, there are summarily dismissed. So it has nothing to do with being stubborn. I have already said I really dislike the Palin choice- as that is not the direction I like ( Lieberman was the guy I thought could help the party and ticket ) -
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Anyway, vote McCain if it truly scares you Obama will bring a new type of gangsta to the White House---or maybe just relocate to Wisconsin---I rarely hear about any back door deals there ;D. < world - I can only tell you the state of politics here for the last decade ( really bad) and historically. To think that none of this will find it's way into his regime would be naive, and I know you are not. I have stated repeatedly that Obama himself is not a corrupt person ( or if he is he hides it well like ALL politicians) - but the group that will seek , and receive, more power than they have today absolutely is.I have given you the names and they represent every walk of life here in Illinois. I guess the upside for us is if enough move on- maybe there is a chance the state will get better. No one is saying people are going to die ( I know you put an LOL there) - but people will suffer from the way these people conduct business. I imagine some of the worst ones will be left behind - but corrupt politics here is a way of life - it is ingrained. People laugh and joke about it all the time,but truth be told it isn't funny. I was closely involveed in Chi politics in the early to mid 70's - and it disgusted me. I gave up very good 'opportunities' because I couldn't stomach some of what I saw done to people...true story. Can Obama be above all of that ? I am saying I don't think anyone could - he likely owes too many people. Some of this here will leak into national politics - without question. I don't like it and it bothers me - but I have other issues too. That being said the candidate on the other side is not clean in my support either and I have serious issues with his VP choice. However I don't see this vote as clear cut as everyone else - I am not sure when that became a bad thing. I understand the divisive politics of the last - oh maybe 16 years nationally. It seems today no one has any respect for anothers opinion, you're either right or wrong. I just don't see the world - or this decision as being that. Ihope this makes some sense to you..
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <What can I say, VB? What Powell said made perfect sense to me. What parts would you disagree with? Or what would you add (beyond your already well documented comments about Illinois politics being a cesspool)?< I obviously have issues with the health care platform as well as future tax concerns ( neither is exactly clear enough for me on that- being honest) - also I can tell you I am not motivated by Barack Obama- as hard as it seems for people to believe that. Most of the circle of people in my area are not motivated by him.Now could that be tainted by the Chicago political link - surely that is a part of it as we believe nothing that group says. I don't dislike the guy personally - but I don't come away from the debates telling myself - oh man, he is going to change the world. If you do, or others do, that's great for you. Colin Powell sees qualities that impress him in some cases I just do not. Doesn't make him necessarily right or me wrong is my point.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <vbdad, what I see is you being incredibly overly defensive when people aren't really criticizing you. You keep saying people are calling you a neocon (a word rarely used around here these days) and saying that people in WE want all GOPers dead because it would solve our problems. This thread shows that, there are other threads where you do the same. It's weird and over the top. That chip on your shoulder is bigger than the one you're imagining on everyone else's. I'm not saying that people don't have strong views on here but you keep insisting that we're all out to get you when most people haven't said hardly anything to you.< I guess it's from years of taking a beating on it, that has wore on me. And all those comments I make at one time or another have been said to me .... When I lay out why I have issues with Obama, and amnot sold, and then get summarily dismissed as if I can't see the forest for the trees, it may not be as personal as past attacks - but it basically insinuates I am somehow not intelligent enough and cannto understand why Obama is the only choice. I find that offensive - if that is being over sensitive - than so be it. With the exception of a very few - I don't criticize how people have gotten to their Obama choice.....trust me I get the Bush hatred, the 'change' movement, and the fact that some people's political beliefs are not in line with mine. All well and good. Some people truly believe Obama's health care plan will fix the system - and quickly. Truth be told I hope they are right, but my opinion is it will not. I don't get my talking points from nut job radio- or web sites -- so the generalizations and repeated 4 more years of Bush just wear me out
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <However, you must admit that it IS very telling (and embarrassing for your average rational Republican) that what McCain is dishing out is being so hungrily lapped up by such whackadoos.< the people running the campaign I hope never get that opportunity again. Does that cover it ?
Originally Posted By WorldDisney More comments from Powell: <a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_c5bbvmqc" target="_blank">http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=...c5bbvmqc</a> This man just makes more and more sense and is a represenative of the type of voters who McCain is losing in terms of independents and moderates and why. Powell state EXACTLY why this man is rubbing people the wrong way and why it rubbed HIM the wrong way and why Obama has his vote today. Powell is such a thoughtful man, I might've even voted for him if he ran for President back in the day.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster vbdad55: "When I lay out why I have issues with Obama, and amnot sold, and then get summarily dismissed as if I can't see the forest for the trees, it may not be as personal as past attacks - but it basically insinuates I am somehow not intelligent enough and cannto understand why Obama is the only choice." Your support for McCain certainly puts you in the minority around here which is going to get you a lot of attention. I don't think you are being "summarily dismissed" as much as being intensely questioned. If you were being dismissed you wouldn't get any real response to what you have to say. "I find that offensive - if that is being over sensitive - than so be it." I think you are being over-sensitive. Sorry bro. It's easy to feel that way when you are in the minority. I seriously value your input and I am sure others here do as well as evidenced by their intense responses. "With the exception of a very few - I don't criticize how people have gotten to their Obama choice.....trust me I get the Bush hatred, the 'change' movement, and the fact that some people's political beliefs are not in line with mine." There certainly is a lot of Bush hatred--especially around here. I think a lot of people are going to vote for the presidential candidate which is least like Bush. For many that is Obama. I have actually been surprised how left-of-center this place has become. It's good for me but I know how uncomfortable it must get for the right-of-center folks. "All well and good. Some people truly believe Obama's health care plan will fix the system - and quickly. Truth be told I hope they are right, but my opinion is it will not." I preferred Hillary's plan. I'm not sure Obama can get it done. I'll still vote for him over McCain because he's going to try to do something about health care. "I don't get my talking points from nut job radio- or web sites -- so the generalizations and repeated 4 more years of Bush just wear me out" Understood. But I don't see people here lumping you with the fringe elements of the GOP. Your point of view is well-reasoned and well-respected--by me at least.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 << "if you vote Obama, you've just drunk the koolaid - you can't possibly be voting for him because you favor him on the issues or you think he'd do a good job" < <sorry - show me one where I used that terminology. > I didn't say you used that terminology. But that IS the general attitude I get from you sometimes, though - even if you probably don't intend it. It's sort of a chip on the shoulder vibe you've been giving off lately. No doubt unintentionally, and frustrated by some posters who go over the top. It's just that instead of responding to a particular over-the-top poster, you sometimes make blanket statements that seem to be addressed to all of us. << GOP bashing sometimes, but not Obama worship. And I'm sure you realize there are millions of Illinoisans who are just as observant and astute as you who will be voting FOR Obama, so simply observing him more closely than us non-Illinoisans isn't quite enough in itself.<> <Dabob,I know you are much more politically savvy than that - this is a state - run by a city that hasn't elected anyone from the GOP since 1932. So please, if Beelzebub was running on the Democratic ticket in Chicago - he would get 65-75% of the vote because the machine would make sure of it.> I wasn't talking about that sort of thing. Democrats usually win most elections in NYC too, but that doesn't mean that a particular Democrat has anything dirty about him. Same with Republicans in, say, rural Mississippi. The GOP controls everything there, but that doesn't mean that a particular rural MS Republican has anything wrong with him, EVEN IF he benefits from the machine's existence. And, like WD talked about, this is key. There's a big difference to a potentially corrupt machine existing and everyone of that party in that locale being dirty. Later you say you don't think Obama is dirty, but will owe favors to unsavory people. Well, show me one politician who gets that far who doesn't. You're more familiar with the people Obama may pay back in some way, but McCain has his own, don't think he doesn't. Clinton had his "Arkansas mafia," Bush had his Texas cronies, they all come with some baggage. And while it would be nice if none of them did, that's not reality. It doesn't prevent them from governing well in itself. Clinton rewarded some of his Arkansas buddies, but still managed to be (IMO) a good president. <Trust me I'm not an idiot and have thought things through.> I know that. I just think Obama supporters should be afforded the same courtesy. <There could be no possible reason not to vote for Obama...it's just every thread denegrates itself to become that....> See, that's what I mean. Yes, there are a couple of people here who have essentially said that, and sometimes they post a lot. Yet there are more here who are voting for Obama for what we see as well-thought-out reasons who also know and respect the fact that others will be voting for McCain for their own well-thought-out reasons. I think you're lumping us all in the same boat, and that's no better than the people who lump all McCain supporters in with yahoos or idiots. That's all I'm saying.
Originally Posted By dshyates "I just think Obama supporters should be afforded the same courtesy." Nope, we are all just man-love drunk from the kool-aid. No one could possibly have issues with the GOPs domestic or foriegn policies.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Powell is such a thoughtful man, I might've even voted for him if he ran for President back in the day.<< I had the privilege of seeing him make a speech at a conference in San Francisco back in 2000. Brilliant speaker, truly one of the "good guys" who is disheartened at what this administration and the nasty McCain trainwreck have done to his party and the country. Powell is the best president we never had. When this election is over, there will be a serious amount of soul-searching in the GOP, win or lose. The thoughtful, intelligent, principled and rational side vs. the red meat "professional wrestling" talk radio side of the party. The screecher's time has past, thank heavens. But there absolutely is a place for a reasonable, honorable conservatism in the spectrum, and I hope they get the party back.
