Originally Posted By WilliamK99 That isn't how you worded it before.... ***Tap it! This earth was made for Man***<< Yeah and you wonder why we reacted the way we did at your comments...
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "I just said that we need more oil right now, for the short term, to protect Amercia's economy, millions of people's well being, etc." Then why not tap into the millions of gallons stored in the "Strategic Reserves"? That could help bring the price down while we come up with an alternative.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm not for drilling Alaska for the purpose of putting off REAL solutions. Let's get REAL solutions working NOW. But until that happens, our country needs energy.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Then why not tap into the millions of gallons stored in the "Strategic Reserves"? > Let's do it. That would help, too. So would a little drilling in Alaska. I'm tired of our country being dependent on foreign oil. Even better would be to have good ol' American ingenuity come up with better solutions.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I still believe that the Earth was made for man. I feel lik people took my statement and twisted it into "the earth was made for man TO DESTROY AND USE FOR OUR VAIN PLEASURES WITHOUT REGARD FOR CONSEQUENCES"
Originally Posted By plpeters70 And we have energy josh - we just have to pay more for it than we did before. Personally, I'm ok with that. It's quite obvious that the USA won't change its ways unless the people demand it of the government, and of the corportations who run the show. But they won't do that if everything is rosey - but the minute it starts effecting their pocketbooks, they'll start screaming bloody murder. It would be nice if we actually had some leaders in Washington, and in our corportations, who could actually think beyond the next election (or business quarter), but that doesn't seem to be happening. So, it's going to take some major pain to get these people to wise-up and start moving America down the path to clean, renewable energy that doesn't tie us to a foreign power. I hate the fact that some people will be hurt by the rising prices, and wish the government would step in and help them in responsible ways, but I just don't see that happening. They'll instead go for stupid short term solutions like drilling up Alaska - it will ease the pain now, but cause more problems in the future.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "So would a little drilling in Alaska. I'm tired of our country being dependent on foreign oil." I am too, but destroying the environment in Alaska won't make things any better. And will only add to the problem of Global Warming - which also needs to be avoided. "Even better would be to have good ol' American ingenuity come up with better solutions." Agreed, but those solutions won't come without money. And while oil is cheaper than the alternatives, people will just go for the cheapest solution. So, the government needs to step in and encourage change - with money for research and tax breaks so that alternatives can have a chance to develop to the point where they actually are cheaper than oil.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<That religion is very flawed then if that is the logic behind the religion.... not even christians go that far in their reasoning.>> It isn’t the religion itself. It’s members who have hijacked its tenets so as to justify their political and economic agendas. But don’t most religionists do that to some extent?
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<That religion is very flawed then if that is the logic behind the religion.... not even christians go that far in their reasoning.>> It isn’t the religion itself. It’s members who have hijacked its tenets so as to justify their political and economic agendas. But don’t most religionists do that to some extent?
Originally Posted By tiggertoo ^^^I hate double posting. Anyhow. <<Any good Mormon believes that God created the Earth as a place for mankind to learn and grow.>> Learn and grow to do what, josh? You and I both know that answer to that question, but I’ll leave it rhetorical as it delves deeper into LDS doctrine than I feel comfortable discussing right now. <<He also gave us the charge to till the earth, grow food, and generally TAKE CARE OF IT.>> “Generally� Like God “generally†takes care of us? I thought he is a little more involved than that. Remember according to LDS doctrine, this Earth is a training ground for an eventful after life where we will have our own charges. <<I just said that we need more oil right now, for the short term, to protect Amercia's economy, millions of people's well being, etc.>> When did God EVER command us to be good stewards of the AMERICAN ECONOMY? This is where the GOP agenda and Mormonism seem to be meshed by its members. If your economy is one that damages the Earth, we, as “good stewards†must change our actions to protect the Earth for future generations and to show that we can be entrusted with possessions that God might be willing to endow us with in the future. It always seems ironic to me take so many utilize LDS doctrine to vindicate their political agendas.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf It's so weird when religion and economics mesh - especially when the major spiritual leaders in history were against materialism. It serves as proof that spirituality has been hijacked by political agendas.
Originally Posted By gadzuux It's not the doing of "real" spiritual leaders - it's the wolves in sheeps' clothing that are passing as religious leaders. The world is full of falwells, dobsons, osteens, robertsons and the like who are only too happy to trade whatever influence they wield over their duped followers in exchange for political power and money. I'm at a loss to explain why anybody feels they need some outside leadership on issues of morality and spirituality. But apparently they do, and in so doing they let the camel into the tent. So then who is responsible for the inevitable sense of betrayal they feel when they find out their 'spiritual leaders' are no better than they are? And in many cases, significantly worse. We recently went through the dubious spectacle of the current pope's tour of east coast US cities, and all of the people lined up in an emotional frenzy hoping to see him. Did any of these people question why they were so enthusiastic? Not a chance. They get caught up in a fever of unjustifiable excitement and convince themselves that "this particular person" is exalted and special and even holy. Why? What has he ever done? Nevertheless, he's a 'religious leader'. And what power does he have, precisely? He can change up catholic dogma, only he never will. He can praise or condemn this or that, only he's largely ignored. He's largely irrelevant, but it doesn't matter to the devoted - anyone under that silly hat will elicit the same exact response from these people. They don't question anything. Maybe that's why they need such authoritative leadership - they don't seem to faith in their own instincts. So it's easier to be led than to find their own way - let someone else decide what's right and wrong for them. And of course the promise of everlasting life and salvation. And this really works - for some people.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<<<Any good Mormon believes that God created the Earth as a place for mankind to learn and grow.>> <Learn and grow to do what, josh? You and I both know that answer to that question, but I’ll leave it rhetorical as it delves deeper into LDS doctrine than I feel comfortable discussing right now. > Why are you even bringing it up, then? I'm here to learn and grow to have faith, love, and serve one another, and be wiser, better, more loving people every day. I have no clue what you're getting at. "<<He also gave us the charge to till the earth, grow food, and generally TAKE CARE OF IT.>> <Generally� Like God “generally†takes care of us? I thought he is a little more involved than that. > That was a big jump in topics. What's your point? <When did God EVER command us to be good stewards of the AMERICAN ECONOMY?> Never said He did. That's me as an american talking, not specifically as a Mormon. I'm both, you know. <It always seems ironic to me take so many utilize LDS doctrine to vindicate their political agendas.> It seems ironic that people take their beliefs and apply them to their everyday lives? Why?
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Any harm done to our planet (or to other people on it) in the name of religion is morally reckless and utterly reprehensible.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'm here to learn and grow to have faith, love, and serve one another, and be wiser, better, more loving people every day.*** And someday be a god. At least, that's what I'm guessing he was driving at (the issue you two are dancing around). Anyway, Josh I appreciate your further replies on this matter, you must understand that what you wrote in the first place is what upset people so much (tap it, this world was made for man). Obviously not everyone agrees with your assumption on that issue. Some of us consider the world to be "made" for all the creatures who inhabit the place. And destroying the Alaskan wilderness in the name of big oil is not the way to go, at least imho.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo << Why are you even bringing it up, then?...I have no clue what you're getting at.>> Then you are either evading my comments, or I mistook your knowledge of LDS doctrine to be deeper than it is. Either way, read Joseph Fielding Smith and that should give you a better idea as to where I was going. <<That was a big jump in topics. What's your point?>> Nah...it's not so big. But then, if you didn’t understand my first comment, this one surely would have lost you. <<Never said He did. That's me as an american talking, not specifically as a Mormon. I'm both, you know.>> Which comes first, josh? When faced with obedience to God’s commandments and your political or economic agenda, which comes first? <<It seems ironic that people take their beliefs and apply them to their everyday lives? Why?>> It isn’t “application.†It’s manipulation. So often—too often—people manipulate their religious tenets so as to conform to their political, economic, moral, et al. agendas. Henry VIII is a perfect example. This is what a great many Mormons and Evangelicals do (so I don’t seem to be singling out LDS members) with regard to their charge to be good stewards of the Earth. But it is especially important for Mormons as they believe they are to be entrusted with much more in the after life. Their ability to act as good stewards of the Earth will indicate how dedicated they would be to their future charges. God certainly gave us an idea as to how he would have us act as caregivers, not of only our fellow humans, but of all His creations. Yet, somehow, in this modern day and age, only humans and their desire for capital gain has dominated nearly every aspect of human activity. I cannot imagine how utterly disappointed He is.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<At least, that's what I'm guessing he was driving at (the issue you two are dancing around).>> Yes; but I have good reason not to overtly delve into this topic. It a hot-button issue that generally leads to a great deal of angst between the Mormons and Evangelicals. The discussion never ends pretty. So I’d rather allude to it, rather than overtly acknowledge it and thus provoke the inevitable vitriol.
Originally Posted By Mr X I thought so. Anyway, it's neither here nor there except as it pertains to what we have here right in front of us. And the answer from the "mormon at large" is pretty scary, honestly. Forget that next planet, maybe you should worry more about this one!
Originally Posted By Mr X I thought so. Anyway, it's neither here nor there except as it pertains to what we have here right in front of us. And the answer from the "mormon at large" is pretty scary, honestly. Forget that next planet, maybe you should worry more about this one!
