Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The ship 'em all back home thing is never, ever going to happen. It's unworkable (no pun intended). The president's plan recognizes that, and at the same time recognizes that something must be done to stop the constant unrestricted flow of people across the borders, some of whom may not be entering the country with honorable intent. It is not fair that some people who cut to the head of the line to come here illegally will benefit from this, but at this late date, little else can be done. Many people are waiting in line patiently to do the right thing and come here legally, and their wait is extended by illegal immigration. My hope is that this plan creates a fresh start and frees up resources to more closely monitor our borders from now on.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Give them green cards. Tax them. << That would help, but even better would be more severe penalties to companies/businesses who knowingly employ illegals.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>The "anchor baby" slur is what I'm addressing here.<< Its not a slur. Illegals know well that if they have a kid born here, then they are home free, and the green card is in the mail.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I didn't miss it. I didn't think that we were deciding what was right and wrong based on what they do in countries with fewer freedoms than we have.<< You are confusing rights with freedoms.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer How about this, then: I didn't miss it. I didn't think that we were deciding what was right and wrong based on what they do in countries with fewer rights than we have.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I wouldn't grant citizenship, but I would grant green cards to legalize their presence.<< Once you have a Green Card you eventually become eligible for citizenship.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>From a national security and economic standpoint, it's essential that a nation be in control of its borders. That's reasonable, I think, but it'll probably have me branded xenophobic, racist or fascist within a few posts.<< I absolutely agree with this. National security is a very important consideration. That's part of why I want those who are currently here identified so we can know if they are a risk or not. The plan being proposed in the The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act has a carrot and stick approach to this. It's totally viable and realistic as it doesn't put anyone in front of the line for permanent resident status (and later citizenship) who isn't already in line, and fines those already here but it doesn't destroy families in the process.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Once you have a Green Card you eventually become eligible for citizenship.<< I don't think it's automatic, though.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>Are you for an amnesty program?<< I wouldn't grant citizenship, but I would grant green cards to legalize their presence. Once they are officially here, they can be taxed and they can be monitored. They should still go through the steps needed for naturilization if they choose to become citizens.<< EXACTLY! The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act provides for some pretty interesting requirements. It requires those who are here illegally to fess up and pay a fine. It doesn't provide for amnesty because it doesn't grant permanent resident status without cost. There are two sets of fines as well as waiting periods. The first is a $1,000 fine which must be paid when application for the new visa is made. Once the new visa is granted, the immigrant must wait four years before applying for Permanent Resident status when the second $1,000 fine which must be paid. Once an immigrant is a Permanent Resident, they can start the five year waiting period for Citizenship. There ARE costs and they're not easy for a person making an immigrant's wages. It also requires that an immigrant pay all the taxes that anyone else has to pay. But think about the advantages. We would know who is here. Criminal and security requirements would still be in place, so criminal immigrants and those who are national security risks would still be subject to deportation. Those who are working toward Permanent Residency (and later citizenship for those who choose to take that route) would be required to learn English and civics. People who are legally employed can legally protect themselves under the laws of the United States and gain better work as their skills increase, including getting *dun dun dun* health insurance! Meanwhile, many people who would love to go home WILL because they know that they could come back with less hassle in the future. I see it as a win-win.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Another course of action could be to prevent money illegals send out of the country back to Mexico.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I think we are all saying that securing the borders and enforcement are going to be important.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>Once you have a Green Card you eventually become eligible for citizenship.<< I don't think it's automatic, though.<< No, it's not. First, the proposal that I've read is a new classification of visa that would lead to "green card" (which is actually pink now) Permanent Resident status. After four years under the new visa, the immigrant would pay an additional $1,000 fine and be eligible to apply for adjustment to Permanent Resident status. Once the immigrant receives that status, there is a five year waiting period before they become eligible to apply for naturalized citizenship.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << But think about the advantages. We would know who is here. Criminal and security requirements would still be in place, so criminal immigrants and those who are national security risks would still be subject to deportation. >> These are good points and seem to be what Bush thinks.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Another course of action could be to prevent money illegals send out of the country back to Mexico.<< Many "illegals" have family who are legal immigrants. Wouldn't solve a thing.
Originally Posted By cmpaley I said: >>But think about the advantages. We would know who is here. Criminal and security requirements would still be in place, so criminal immigrants and those who are national security risks would still be subject to deportation.<< To which Beau replied: >>These are good points and seem to be what Bush thinks.<< I faint.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The ship 'em all back home thing is never, ever going to happen. It's unworkable (no pun intended). The president's plan recognizes that, and at the same time recognizes that something must be done to stop the constant unrestricted flow of people across the borders, some of whom may not be entering the country with honorable intent. It is not fair that some people who cut to the head of the line to come here illegally will benefit from this, but at this late date, little else can be done. Many people are waiting in line patiently to do the right thing and come here legally, and their wait is extended by illegal immigration. My hope is that this plan creates a fresh start and frees up resources to more closely monitor our borders from now on.> I basically agree with this, and with the act cmpaley is talking about. It's a more realistic approach to a complicated problem that doesn't pretend to call back a boat that's already sailed, but tries to prevent more such boats from sailing, as it were. The trouble with another of 2oony's points, though... <That would help, but even better would be more severe penalties to companies/businesses who knowingly employ illegals.> is that is directly conflicts the interests of another of the groups Bush is trying to make happy with this proposal (business owners). I don't see this part happening. After all, the laws already on the books are rarely enforced.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't see this part happening.<< Probably not. Even though that's the major contributing problem to the whole mess to begin with.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Mexico has lousy infrastructure because it's been governed far too often by socialists. We have good infrastructure because our economic freedom generated the capital to build it. >>> Nonsense on both counts. Transparency of government has very little to do with the economic system in place, and much to do with an independent and free press and a general will of the public and gov't officials to root out corruption. Corrupt systems can exist in any system, as can a highly efficient and transparent gov't. Mexico's problems are far more related to corruption than socialism. It's lack of transparency in government that keeps foreign investment out.
