Originally Posted By jonvn "Because he's a liberal," Actually, I think it's more like he simply hasn't realized that you're just here to troll, and is foolishly trying to have a conversation with you.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Instructive indeed." If he did ever offer substantive arguments, I've not seen it. Perhaps that was before. Now it's just nonsense designed to obfuscate and derail. He didn't get away with it in the other global warming topic, because I simply came back repeatedly to the basic idea, and that was it. What he does is get into meta discussions and semantic arguments in order to appear as if he is saying something, when in fact he is not. I've seen this repeatedly, and am now just sort of skipping over them. If they have something to say, that's one thing, but when you get into posts where he says something like he is commenting on "commentators on commentators," then you get the idea of how many levels of removal above the actual ideas of the discussion he will spin it so that the conversation is no longer about the original issue. This is being done because he has no real ammunition or data to argue with, as his beliefs have been shown to be so utterly wrong that there is no factual basis to argue from. So he does this. Personally, I was wrong about the Iraq war when we went into it. I thought it was a good idea because of the WMD that were supposedly aimed right at us, and that we'd go in, sweep out the bad guys, and leave or at least something like that. That was a mistaken belief on my part. Instead of digging in my heels and refusing to see reality, I simply realized that the situation was different, and I changed my ideas. Some people can't do that, and will go through any machinations possible to avoid it. Kind of sad to see so many brain cycles go through this empty exercise. But that's what some people apparently need to do.
Originally Posted By DAR I was watching Flags of Our Fathers the other day and it was interesting to note that by Iwo Jima, the country was starting to tire of the war. But all it took was that one photo and a tour to get people to support the rest of the war. No the tour was completely cynical the soldiers knew that. But it's kind of sad that there isn't just something that could get us over the hump and then back home.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I just don't see how people can equate the Iraq War with anything that happened in WWII. Iraq is the first time we've ever unilaterally invaded a country. And has been borne out, we did it for reasons that turned out not to be true. It is now painfully obvious we had no idea what to do once we got in there. And I'll say it until I die, there's no way ANYTHING we could do will stop 1500 years of sectarian violence. Cheney and Bush have made a monumental error in judgment here, compounded by a refusal to admit they have made such a huge mistake. There's just no way a majority of the country will ever get behind continued military aggression. Putin was right the other day. We have made the world an unsafe place, and Bush is responsible.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <We differ in our opinion on how obtuse you are. Others here share my opinion, however, which is what I pointed out.> Again, that a few other posters share your opinion is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Repeating a pejoritive does not advance an argument. <You tried to use those raw figures to show that the average of Dem/Dem Congresses/white houses had higher average deficits than Bush/DeLay. I pointed out that including the WWII years, when deficits were necessarily through the roof, threw off the numbers and made your attempt at manipulation dishonest.> I didn't try; I did. Your "pointing" something out doesn't make it true. <I believe YOUR site showed the numbers for Bush/DeLay higher than 1.18, did they not?> No, it didn't. It didn't include numbers for the last few years. <Trying to pretend WWII was anything but an aberration is what's dishonest.> Nobody's trying to pretend that. <And, as we've seen, Dem/Dem congresses, once you take away the WWII years, did a better job of that than Bush/DeLay.> But we haven't seen that. <Could you be more vague, please? LOL! You're getting desperate.> Of course I'm not. Please stop blaming me for your failures. <You have provided NOTHING to make that claim credible. Nothing. You simply assume it as a given. That is called treating an opinion as a fact. That is, in fact, the definition of it.> Whether or not a supply evidence has nothing to do with whether or not something is a fact. It is a fact that the Mt Hood is the highest mountain in Oregon. I don't need to link to anything for that to be a fact. Conversely, no amount of evidence can make an opinion a fact. It only shows that a few people share it. <More projecting.> I disagree.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I think it's more like he simply hasn't realized that you're just here to troll, and is foolishly trying to have a conversation with you.> No, I think my explanation is correct. If you had facts on your side, you'd be able to answer honest questions, instead of making personal attacks.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Iraq is the first time we've ever unilaterally invaded a country.> Actually, we didn't unilaterally invade Iraq. I believe we did unilaterally invade Haiti during the 90's however. Also, our invasion of Grenada in the 80's was probably unilateral.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj ^^ Invaded and left. Wouldn't it be nice if we were out of Iraq as quick as Haiti and Grenada instead of digging in our heels for a protracted war that will cost us our future?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Wouldn't it be nice if we were out of Iraq as quick as Haiti and Grenada instead of digging in our heels for a protracted war that will cost us our future?> I harldy think Iraq will cost us our future, but yes, it would be nice if we were out of Iraq. It would also be nice if we were out of Korea, and Germany, and Afghanistan. It would also be nice if terrorists wouldn't strap bombs to their chests and set them off in marketplaces, killing women and children. Unfortunately, not all of this world is nice.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj Wouldn't it be nice if some people would make the appropriate comparisons about the current war and wars of the past? For example, Iraq is not like Haiti, Grenada, or World War II. Irap more closely resembles Vietnam.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Actually, we didn't unilaterally invade Iraq." Sure we did. The U.N. didn't approve it. Tell me one other country that had veto power over this that Bush would have heeded.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "It would also be nice if we were out of Korea, and Germany, and Afghanistan." When are people like you going to stop with the dishonest comparisons? The missions in Korea and Germany are nothing the ones in Iraq or Afghanistan. Name the last bullet fired in anger in Germany or Korea.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Wouldn't it be nice if some people would make the appropriate comparisons about the current war and wars of the past?> Um, that would be you that did that.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Sure we did. The U.N. didn't approve it.> Yes, it did. Resolution 1441 recalled that UN resolution 678, "authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area". Besides, UN approval has nothing to do with whether an action is unilateral or multilateral.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder The situation in Iraq is just like Vietnam and you know it.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Yes, it did. Resolution 1441 recalled that UN resolution 678, "authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area". Besides, UN approval has nothing to do with whether an action is unilateral or multilateral." Really, does your nose grow when you do this kind of stuff? It's just hard to take anyone seriously anymore who insists on holding on to things like this.
