Originally Posted By jonvn For what reason? So I can further delve into their irrational ramblings? They all basically do what I said. They've cooked up some imaginary deity or deities, and have invented ways to please them. That's all it comes down to. Now the cultures of these different areas do come into play in how these deities are viewed, and what empty gestures are made to them. But it's all the same thing. And not a shred of it means a thing, until the people involved decide to start killing others who don't think precisely like them. Here's a joke by Emo Phillips that I think is appropriate: I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>For what reason? So I can further delve into their irrational ramblings?<< Perhaps to prevent your own irrational ramblings on the subject. >>They all basically do what I said. They've cooked up some imaginary deity or deities, and have invented ways to please them. That's all it comes down to. Now the cultures of these different areas do come into play in how these deities are viewed, and what empty gestures are made to them. But it's all the same thing.<< But it's not. It is also about how the adherents of that faith engage the world and others or how they disengage from them. And there are huge differences in what different faith traditions teach. You've apparently learned enough to re-affirm your belief that they are all essentially the same, but not enough to see the differences in them.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Perhaps to prevent your own irrational ramblings on the subject." Except that I'm not being irrational. Sorry. "It is also about how the adherents of that faith engage the world and others or how they disengage from them." That would basically fall under the empty and useless gestures I was talking about. "not enough to see the differences in them." Oh, there are some minor pointless differences. One religion says you don't work on Saturday, another says you don't work on Sunday. But since they are all in reference to something that doesn't even exist in the first place, it really is all rather meaningless.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Except that I'm not being irrational.<< Of course you are. You are basing your argument on a claim that is unsupportable by deeper research. >>That would basically fall under the empty and useless gestures I was talking about<< No, not really. Some religions are very much into building hospitals and social service organizations while other religions prefer to focus on the self rather than the community. I wouldn't consider a charity hospital as a useless gesture. >>Oh, there are some minor pointless differences. One religion says you don't work on Saturday, another says you don't work on Sunday. But since they are all in reference to something that doesn't even exist in the first place, it really is all rather meaningless.<< The difference you mentioned is meaningless, but if that is really the only level of difference you think exists between faiths then it's no wonder you think they are all the same.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You are basing your argument on a claim that is unsupportable by deeper research." Ok, this is what I have said: 1) All religions invent some sort of deity or deities. 2) They then invent some series of empty gestures to appease those deities. That's about it for religion. "Some religions are very much into building hospitals and social service organizations while other religions prefer to focus on the self rather than the community." Good for them. You don't have to have religion to do that. There are many charities than have nothing to do with religious belief. That is something that is just adjunct to the basic philosophy of the religion itself, which does not go much beyond my two points above. "The difference you mentioned is meaningless, but if that is really the only level of difference you think exists between faiths then it's no wonder you think they are all the same." That is a simple example, but they all fall under that same idea. Nothing any religion says or does as part of its philosophy is meaningful or different than anything else. The main reason being that it is all in service to beings that don't even exist. It's all empty and of no use whatsoever.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer We'll have to agree to disagree that you know what you're talking about, Jon.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>All religions invent some sort of deity or deities.<< Unless these dieties truly exist. You have faith they don't, others have faith they do. You're falling into what I see a lot of atheists do -- making a faith of your own, and becoming rather zealous about it. Every bit as zealous and interested in conversion as any preacher might be. I never understood that approach. If religion is nothing more than make believe stuff, why is it so important to attack that? I would think it would be of little or no importance, so long as it didn't get into a prayer in school type of thing.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You're falling into what I see a lot of atheists do -- making a faith of your own," I don't have a faith that they exist or don't. If there were one shred of evidence to show me otherwise, I would believe otherwise. But until there is some, why should I state something to be true when I see no reason to? Furthermore, I'm not interested in conversion. If you want to believe in something, feel free. That's your choice. I think it's a waste of time. But that is up to you. I may tell you what I think, or not, but if you don't like it, you don't have to. It doesn't hurt me, usually, if someone else decides to be religious. It does, however, make me see them as members of groups who ultimately do harm to the world. "If religion is nothing more than make believe stuff, why is it so important to attack that?" Usually I don't, but we're just discussing it. I'm sorry if you personally feel attacked, but this is how I think on the subject. Go right ahead and do what you want. People do things all the time I don't like. They go to church, they get tattoos, they eat okra. I'm not the final arbiter of what you should and should not do. I'm the final arbiter of what I should and should not do. I just don't enjoy seeing people murder each other horribly over NOTHING. And that's the biggest legacy that religion has given to us in this world.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <If there were one shred of evidence to show me otherwise, I would believe otherwise.> There's plenty of evidence to show you otherwise. You have chosen to reject it.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>>>All religions invent some sort of deity or deities.<< Unless these dieties truly exist. You have faith they don't, others have faith they do. You're falling into what I see a lot of atheists do -- making a faith of your own, and becoming rather zealous about it. Every bit as zealous and interested in conversion as any preacher might be.<< I used to feel much the same way as jonvn, until exactly this point hit me. There's no way for any of us to prove whether or not there's an imaginary friend in the sky. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., have chosen to believe that something exists even though there's no way to prove that it does. Atheists have chosen to believe that something exists even though there's no way to prove that it doesn't. Once I realized that, I lost my Atheism. I didn't suddenly discover God or Jesus or Krishna, but I had to humbly recognize that there are some things that may remain forever beyond my knowledge. Quite an upsetting thought in its own way.
Originally Posted By jonvn "There's plenty of evidence to show you otherwise." Well, no, there isn't. Not unless you count the Madonna appearing in somebody's cheese danish somewhere as evidence. Which I don't.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Once I realized that, I lost my Atheism." What you are called, then is an agnostic.
Originally Posted By alexbook Okay, an apology and correction: When I started composing post #191, #189 hadn't shown up yet, and I took 2oony's description of jonvn in #188 as accurate, which jonvn said in #189 it wasn't. My apologies to jonvn for lumping him in with the hard-core Atheists 2oony described. >>What you are called, then is an agnostic.<< Yep. Or a lapsed Jew. Or (half-jokingly) a lapsed Atheist.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>they eat okra<< Well, everyone pretty much agrees that's a line that shouldn't be crossed. ; )
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Well, no, there isn't.> Like I said, you have chosen to reject it. And I'm not counting the Madonna appearing in somebody's cheese danish somewhere as evidence.
Originally Posted By jonvn Not a cheese danish? How about a piece of wood paneling? I'm sorry, but there is no evidence. Christians and Jews have a Bible, so do Moslems. Hindus have their own thing. All of it is a pile, far as I'm concerned. None of it is the least bit convincing because it is all based on "faith," and not evidence. If God came down right now and said something different to us, I'd be very very happy about it. I'd be thrilled. But it's not going to happen. And it hasn't happened. Some people have managed to convince themselves that it's true. They want to believe really strongly that this isn't it. But it's all in how they were raised, and a fervent hope that there is some justice in this world, somehow. There's not. There's just what we have here, and what we make for ourselves. In a few decades following our deaths, we are forgotten and all we knew becomes lost. The thing to do is to make your life a happy one, be kind to your children and to others, and hope that they will pass that on. I don't see religion doing that. I see it as a way of forcing people to do certain things for the wrong reasons and to create divisions amongst the people of the world, who are all one family. It's a terrible thing.
Originally Posted By ecdc Again, I tend to agree with jon, even though he is pretty harsh in his characterization of beliefs many people hold sacred. Those of us that were religious and then moved to the Agnostic side of things have been on both sides of the fence. That's not to say that we're right or that our perspective is more valuable. But no one can fathom how filtered their worldview is if they view things through their lifelong held religious beliefs. To hear someone who has been a lifelong Christian, for example, say there's plenty of evidence, is like hearing a child say there's plenty of evidence for Santa Claus. Sure there is, if you're starting with a particular belief and working from there.
Originally Posted By ecdc BTW, this is all covered beautifully in a book called "The Stages of Faith" by James Fowler. He walks you through six stages that humans can go through in the world of faith. Without going into it too deeply, stage three is where most religious people end up and stay for life. It's the stage where "it all fits". They see sign after sign after sign that their religion is correct - doesn't matter if they're Christian or Muslim. Fowler's theory can be applied without change to any religion or person of faith. It's a carefully constructed worldview - something bad happens and it's a test from God, something good happens and it's a blessing. But from the outside looking in, one sees the flaws in all the circular logic. But one is not able to see the flaws in their own faith. Stage four is doubt - full on doubt, not the occasional passing thought. It's the dread of realizing there may be no God and having to deal with the fact that you're going to die someday and may be facing nothingness, the total loss of your existence. It's standing on the edge of the cliff looking down, and feeling like you could be pushed off at any minute. I highly recommend the book.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>But no one can fathom how filtered their worldview is if they view things through their lifelong held religious beliefs. To hear someone who has been a lifelong Christian, for example, say there's plenty of evidence, is like hearing a child say there's plenty of evidence for Santa Claus. Sure there is, if you're starting with a particular belief and working from there.<< I was a staunch agnostic for most of my life until just a few years ago. I've been on both sides of the fence as well. And I went through a period of considerable doubt in my newly found faith until I realized that even if I am wrong and facing oblivion, living according to the teachings I believe are God-given means that I am contributing something positive to the world rather than taking something away from it.
