Originally Posted By DlandJB "Too late. I've already been rewarded." Excellent. So you don't ever have to do a decent thing for another person again the rest of your life. >>> Do I have to? No. But the grace that comes with the reward I'm talking about compells me to want to do decent things for others. I do it because I want to do it, not because I am made to do it. And in the faith I follow, that is sort of the point.
Originally Posted By DlandJB And thus we see the problem with religion that we've been discussing all along. If one person's faith tells them they have a lock on salvation (or if Jesus, does...whatever) then what of those poor souls not of their faith? What happens to them?>> That isn't up to me to say. In the faith I follow, that is up to God. I have no right to determine whether or not someone is "saved."
Originally Posted By ecdc "Some religions believe in grace." And some don't. I hear where you're coming from, and my post was a tad harsher than I intended. But at its core, this is the whole problem with many religions. We can talk all day long about how religions do all sorts of good, about how they have things in common, about how many people they help, etc. etc. But at the end of the day you still have people who believe (whether they'll say it or not) that they believe God favors them and not another faith. They are going to heaven, or at least have the path to heaven, and others don't. Period. One doesn't even need to be a radical Islamicist flying planes into buildings to cause harm with these kinds of beliefs. When one person believes they are better than another, and the other person knows they feel that way, there's going to be tension. And yes, I know Christians will say they don't feel like they're better than anyone, they just found the grace of Jesus and that saved them. But how is someone who doesn't believe in Jesus supposed to respond to that? It's the point I made earlier - you start with a worldview that assumes certain things: the Bible is the Word of God, Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, etc., then you go forward with those assumptions and react to others based on those assumptions. It makes it nearly impossible at times for rational, reasonable dialogue or understanding.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>That isn't up to me to say. In the faith I follow, that is up to God. I have no right to determine whether or not someone is "saved." << But then, what's the point of being saved at all? If you're not making any judgments about its efficacy, then why bother? Are you suggesting God will deem the literally billions of other people who aren't Christian as saved? Or does he just pick and choose? And if so, then how is one to know what one is supposed to do to be saved? My limited understanding of modern Evangelical theology is that God makes it clear what must be done to be saved - he's not going to make it random lest we be tossed like a ship on the sea to and fro, to paraphrase the scripture. So if Christians *know* what needs to be done to be saved, and they know someone else has not done it, then do they not know that said person will not be saved?
Originally Posted By DlandJB At the end of the day, the trouble with religions, as well intended as any of them may be, is that they are built and run by humans, who by definition have human frailties like pride and greed and other goodies. We are probably our own worst enemies when it comes to promoting religions. That is why I would prefer to think of my religion as the clothes that best fit my faith. But no Church is going to be a perfect fit for anyone because we are all unique beings.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>When one person believes they are better than another, and the other person knows they feel that way, there's going to be tension. << True. But you and I both know there are plenty of atheists who feel superior because they 'get it' and the 'poor little religious sheep' don't. There's sometimes a condescending pity, and yes, it works both ways.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>True. But you and I both know there are plenty of atheists who feel superior because they 'get it' and the 'poor little religious sheep' don't. There's sometimes a condescending pity, and yes, it works both ways.<< Absolutely. It doesn't help either. My vision for humanity and religion is that everyone just do their own thing, recognize their faith as metaphorical teachings for leading a better life, and leave each other alone. Keep it private and keep it out of anything state sponsored or anything that may appear that the state is endorsing a religion.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>That is why I would prefer to think of my religion as the clothes that best fit my faith. But no Church is going to be a perfect fit for anyone because we are all unique beings.<< And I think this is a healthy, progressive approach to religion. But surely you can appreciate how and why someone might take offense to the claim that you have salvation "locked". They might take offense that you think God favors you more; they might take offense that you are presumptuous enough to know that God has saved you; they might take offense that you believe god had to die for you. Whether or not these are fair interpretations of your beliefs (and I suspect they aren't), it's certainly how it comes across. Intentional or not, it's a very casual dismissal of what others hold sacred.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Are you suggesting God will deem the literally billions of other people who aren't Christian as saved? Or does he just pick and choose? And if so, then how is one to know what one is supposed to do to be saved?>>>>>>>>>> The Bible says that to be saved you have to believe in God and in Jesus'death and resurrection. How God determines who fits into that category is not my right to say. I don't have to make that determination. Look, I'm fairly new at this. I was Catholic for many years but now I attend an evangelical church. Some are harsher than others, but what it comes down to is that it isn't up to us to judge. It is a question that we should ask ourselves -- what do you believe? But the answer is really between the asker and God. I have been on all sides of this debate. I have been a Catholic, a Unitarian Universalist and now an evangelical Christian. I have to say that I have seen more hatred and intolerance and anger thrown at evangelicals from the other side than I have yet seen from evangelicals throwing it at the Unitarians. Why should anyone get angry? If you believe it, then believe it. If you don't, then why care if someone condemns you for what you do or don't believe? So what?
Originally Posted By ecdc "Why should anyone get angry? If you believe it, then believe it. If you don't, then why care if someone condemns you for what you do or don't believe? So what?" Because there's an implicit implication that their sacred beliefs are crap. As if I haven't broadcast it enough the last few days, I grew up Mormon. So I'm perhaps even more sensitive than some to Evangelicals, given the hatred they've spewed towards my family's faith for a long, long time. For an Evangelical to say Mormons believe in "another Jesus" or to say they're heretical because of their temple is deeply insulting to Mormons, and should be. Just as Mormons saying anyone who doesn't convert to their faith is not going to heaven (well, the highest heaven, anyway). And even if you don't say those things, simply proclaiming that your faith is right implies that another's is not. It's not like I'm just making this stuff up, either. You're a history major too, so we both know that there's thousands of years of history that suggest religious differences are rarely tolerated for long in a society.
Originally Posted By ecdc "Look, I'm fairly new at this." Sorry - I don't mean to get carried away. I'd spent the last 10 years discussing religion with people as part of my job and then it suddenly ended when I got a real job (for lack of a better term). So when I have the chance to talk about it again, I get kinda obnoxious.
Originally Posted By DlandJB It's not like I'm just making this stuff up, either. You're a history major too, so we both know that there's thousands of years of history that suggest religious differences are rarely tolerated for long in a society.>>> I know very little about LDS, as I've stated before. I got to go through the temple in Maryland (Bethesda?) before it was consecrated. Was a little put out to hear they ripped up all the carpets and repainted the walls once the doors were closed to non-LDS folks. Because many activities are kept behind closed doors, it opens it up to scruitiny. But so far I have personally known some very good people who were LDS. Since this thread has to do with misconceptions and how they might effect Mit Romney's chances...I think it is not so far fetched to suggest he may have some obstacles to face.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Sorry - I don't mean to get carried away. I'd spent the last 10 years discussing religion with people as part of my job and then it suddenly ended when I got a real job (for lack of a better term). So when I have the chance to talk about it again, I get kinda obnoxious.>> Not a problem. I appreciate the debate and your sincerity is evident.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Was a little put out to hear they ripped up all the carpets and repainted the walls once the doors were closed to non-LDS folks.<< A common practice that has nothing to do with the fact that non-Mormons have been through. Temples are kept immaculately clean inside. They're repainted and recarpeted frequently. During an open house (when non-Mormons are invited in) as much foot traffic might come through in those few weeks as will come through in a year or two after the doors are closed. Instead, they say a dedicatory prayer to excise all the evil spirits of non-Mormons
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Since this thread has to do with misconceptions and how they might effect Mit Romney's chances...I think it is not so far fetched to suggest he may have some obstacles to face.<< He'll have plenty - and in my opinion, should have plenty. I just hope they aren't the "your Jesus isn't my Jesus so you can't be President" obstacles. Instead, I think questions about his stance on abortion, stem-cells, etc. will be more pertinent to the lives Americans lead. And I'm dying to hear someone raise the racism question - he's gotta have a doozy of an answer cooked up for that one!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<There's plenty of evidence to show you otherwise. You have chosen to reject it.>> I'm not sure there is incontrovertible evidence one way or the other. But I know there are many things about the universe that even scientists are unable to explain, and others where they will acknowledge that their theories are nothing other than that. Even if you accept the "Big Bang" as reality, which I do, there are still many unanswered questions. Where did the matter come from to form the stars, planets, etc? How did whatever was there before the Big Bang get there? What set off the Big Bang? Things are also presented in the Bible that men would not have known at the time it was written. You can debate about the "seven days" thing all you want, but the fact remains that the order of creation presented in Genesis is essentially the same as that given by science and evolution. How could the writers of the Bible get that right if not for divine inspiration? I've had a lot of problems with religion over the past half dozen years. I was horribly disillusioned that the Catholic Church organizationally supported the cover up of abuse by priests. But I still believe in God. It is hard at times when I see the world as screwed up as it is right now. But then you look back in history and I would have to say that overall the world is far better off today than it was 100 years ago. So maybe God is making some progress in helping us figure the whole thing out. I think the Judeo-Christian tradition is valuable in giving civilization a moral compass. I think the situation in the Middle East is evidence of what happens when a society develops WITHOUT that tradition. I'm very comfortable with where I'm at. I think there is a God, and I believe I've lived a good enough life that I will go to heaven if it exists. If not, and dieing is nothing more than going to sleep and never waking up; I'm OK with that too. Once again... a confused moderate. ;-)
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>All religions invent some sort of deity or deities.<< Actually, Buddhism doesn't. In Buddhism deities are irrelevant.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I am not big on the idea that everyone is nice just so they get some kind of prize at the end." I've heard people say this exact statement: "What is the point of doing anything good if you don't get rewarded at the end?" To which I, and the third person said almost in unison "Because it is the right thing to do." Some people don't understand that, and need to have a reward to do the right thing. "So when I have the chance to talk about it again, I get kinda obnoxious." Oh come on. You are nowhere near as obnoxious as me. "Buddhism doesn't. In Buddhism deities are irrelevant." Do they pray?
Originally Posted By jonvn "Even if you accept the "Big Bang" as reality, which I do, there are still many unanswered questions. Where did the matter come from to form the stars, planets, etc?" Just because you don't know something does not mean you go and make up some super being and leave it at that. You go and you try and find out exactly what you don't know. You may never figure it out, but you don't just sit there and say some deity did it without further investigation. You go, you look, you experiment, you calculate. And if your ideas turn out to be wrong, you throw them away. That's how you figure out things. "I think the situation in the Middle East is evidence of what happens when a society develops WITHOUT that tradition." There are other parts of the world that do not have the "Judeo-Christian" tradition (I love that made up phrase) and are not bent on self destruction. And Christianity is certainly not above the sorts of things we are seeing in the middle east right now. So, I don't think that's it.
