Originally Posted By jonvn April has been the most violent so far in 2007 in Iraq. So much for the surge.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan We've decided to not count April. We'll wait for a better month and count that instead.
Originally Posted By jonvn And then we'll pick which casualties to count. Eventually, we'll only get down to those that involve shaving cuts.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>This administration must think we're really stupid.<< "You can fool some of the people all the time." -- A. Lincoln
Originally Posted By ecdc >>This administration must think we're really stupid.<< Stupid people tend to think they're smarter than other people. It makes perfect sense that this administration, mighty short on competence and brain power themselves, would assume the same thing of the American people.
Originally Posted By ecdc Seriously, in what kind of bizarro fantasy world do you need to live in to say car bombings shouldn't be measured to determine if the surge is working? Because car bombings apparently aren't part of sectarian violence? They're just blowing up because a smoker got too close to the gas station? I was watching Bill Maher and Dan Quayle's former speech writer was on. I didn't envy her - she was clearly intelligent and not a crazy religious nut, but she still had the task of defending her party. When Maher brought this up - that they aren't counting car bombings - even she was speechless. She had absolutely no response, which truthfully, only made me respect her more because she didn't try and defend the indefensible. Unlike some on these boards.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan This just in ... the attacks of 9/11 will now be regarded as a series of unfortunate plane crashes, but not as terrorist attacks. This change in accounting deals a serious blow to terrorists. Hey, why not? It's Calvinball, George W. Bush edition.
Originally Posted By ecdc ^^^^It's genius! I like it! That'll show those lousy terrorists. Turns out, they didn't kill anyone on George W. Bush's watch. I think since Bush completely botched finding bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri, this is the next best thing. It's the new victory: don't like the results? Just redefine and move goalposts! And our silly parents and grandparents declared war after Pearl Harbor. They should've just said some ships sank and not counted the deaths as part of an attack by Japan. All that time and money saved. Sure, we'd be speaking German right now, but I've always loved bratwurst.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I think it would only be dishonest if they tried to conceal what they were doing.> Wow. Wow. I mean... I disagree.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <When Maher brought this up - that they aren't counting car bombings - even she was speechless. She had absolutely no response, which truthfully, only made me respect her more because she didn't try and defend the indefensible. Unlike some on these boards.> I saw that too, ecdc. I respected her more for that too. Her body/face language told you that she had heard of this before, and was embarrassed by it. Her face said "I can't believe they're doing that either. I'm not about to defend that."
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Douglas, really, you should be ashamed for writing this. You won't be, but you should. What won't you excuse Bush for? You've come up with some beauties before, but you're bucking for hall of fame status lately. I'm going to a conference for a few days. By the time I get back, I expect we won't be counting deaths from IEDs either, and then maybe we can say the war's over and we can get out of the hell hole we created. Unbelievable.> Nice. First a personal attack, then a strawman. No actual argument against what I said, of course.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Now, is that directed to sectarians? Or is it speaking to terrorists -- car bombers, for instance?> That sounds like it would be more directed to the terrorists. <Time and again we;ve been told "the terrorists can't be allowed to win" in Iraq, and yet, we're now just going to stop counting a major cause of the death in Iraq.> We're still counting the car bombs. The administration is just not pointing to them as a measure of success of the surge, because there are more relevant measurements.
Originally Posted By jonvn That must be true, such as how many cigarettes and chocolate bars have made their way from the soldiers into the general population...
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>We're still counting the car bombs. The administration is just not pointing to them as a measure of success of the surge, because there are more relevant measurements.<< Yes. The car bombings are now rather irrelevant, because they don't make the surge look as good.
Originally Posted By gadzuux The extra irony is that it really doesn't matter whether the surge "looks good" or not. Either way it's still not resolving anything. We're still stuck at the same impasse. On the other hand, it serves the purposes of the bush administration. A "stop-gap" is all they need while they play for time - presumeably with the vain hope that somehow they'll escape being held responsible. Which in the end has been the hallmark of this administration all along. And while they play this ridiculous charade with other people's lives, the nation's wealth continues to flow from the middle class to the targeted recipients. They're robbing us blind at the same time that they're prolonging this death and destruction and chaos - of their own creation and choosing - and without justification. History's judgment can't come soon enough, as far as I'm concerned.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh 36 was for 34. Meanwhile, <We're still stuck at the same impasse.> No, we're not. In spite of some naysayers, we have been making progress in Iraq all along. It's been difficult, and there have been setbacks, but it hasn't been the "quaqmire" some on the left have consistently called it. We're going to win this thing, despite the opposition of some in this country. Just like we won the Cold War.
Originally Posted By jonvn April has been the most violent month of 2007. I'd say that is progress,yes. Just not for us.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I think they are a trailing indicator<< I don't know what you mean by that? >>We're going to win this thing<< Yes, by redefining victory. Which means we could have won this thing three years ago. Just stop counting what we don't like, counting what we do, and call it a day. Would save a lot of American lives and have gotten us the hell out of there years ago.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Douglas, you compare the sweeping statements about "victory over the terrorists" made by Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld over the years. Now compare that with the idea that suddenly the car bombs don't count. All those dead don't factor in anymore. It comes down to was this administration lying then, or are they lying now?
