Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "But DOSH, OSHA and so many Title 24 BC requirements are simply overkill and are one of the direct causes why jobs are shipped off shore or at the very least out of California." Which just proves what I said - businesses always do what's right for businesses not what's always best for their customers.
Originally Posted By crapshoot << . . businesses always do what's right for businesses not what's always best for their customers.>> Precisely, that's why you shop at Walmart and Target.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Workplace regulations assume the worker is unaware of the true risk of the job. No job is 100% safe, but people do take riskier jobs in exchange for a higher wage. While regulations can make workers safer, they also depress wages due to the costs of compliance. If the worker did know the risk of the job and took that job because it offered a higher wage to compensate for that risk, the regulation makes the worker worse off because he/she cannot reach their optimal levels of risk and wage.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones It works with consumers too. Let's say I understand the risk of riding the People Mover or monorail or Alice. Let's assume I understand not only the probability of an accident but also the potential severity of the accident. Knowing this I choose to ride the attractions. If adding safety measures causes a decline in the enjoyment I receive out of the rides, then I am made worse off. For those who despise a nanny state, the decrease in enjoyment is sudden and severe. One of the biggest differences between Pooh and the old Fantasyland dark rides is that the Fantasyland dark rides are so intimate. Everything is closer to the rider. As a person who enjoys this type of ride and knows not to stick my hands out at scenery, rides built with new regulations are less enjoyable.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "And while it happens that these organizations sometimes go too far, they don't do it in order to justify their existence. They're existence isn't under any sort of threat." There is an incentive for legislators, executives (mayors, presidents, etc.) and government bureaucrats to expand government just as private sector firms have an incentive to expand their businesses. By helping to expand government, legislators and executives gain power and secure greater funding. The bureaucrat that manages to expand their department will probably get paid more because they end up managing more employees, to give just one example. This is not a left-wing or right-wing idea. Government expansion under Republican presidents is just as pervasive as under Democratic presidents. Since, well, this country was founded, government has been on a long term trend of becoming exponentially bigger and getting into things they arguably have no interest being in, suggesting not a benevolent desire but a self-interested one. "Give me the left wing power units that may sometimes get carried away with safety over right wing watchdogs who are "protecting" us from gay marriage and bad language." But that's not the choice. You can also have both and reject both. It's not an either-or proposition.
Originally Posted By danyoung I'm all for safety, but I do think that OSHA and like agencies can overdo it. When you look at the safety record of an attraction like Alice, and the fact that it's been running for 50 years or so without a problem, then it becomes kinda silly to put in safety features that MIGHT prevent a problem, even though that problem has never occurred.
Originally Posted By crapshoot << then it becomes kinda silly to put in safety features that MIGHT prevent a problem, even though that problem has never occurred.>> Technically, those guests being ecacuated off of the leaves, even with railings, should be harnessed and tethered to the "themed" overhead safety cable, due to the degree of the slope. Oh, each guest should also be equipped with hard hat, saftey goggles, gloves, dayglow orange vest, steel toed boots and evacuation manual. Also, each guest, prior to riding the attraction, must sit through a fifteen minute evac video and release the Disney Co. of any and all claims due to ride malfunction or excessive wait times. Someday, it will come to the point where you enter Disneyland and sit for the next eight hours in a chair while wearing 3-D Virtual Reality helmets for the newest form of the themepark experience.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Someday, it will come to the point where you enter Disneyland and sit for the next eight hours in a chair while wearing 3-D Virtual Reality helmets for the newest form of the themepark experience.<<< I thought that is what they were doing with attractions like TSMM and Turtle Talk, and the Next Gen programme?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "When you look at the safety record of an attraction like Alice, and the fact that it's been running for 50 years or so without a problem." You are making assumptions with this statement. We don't know if there's been a problem or not. Since it opened it is possible that a worker may have fallen off the thing while the park was closed and we'd never know about it.
Originally Posted By danyoung >Oh, each guest should also be equipped with hard hat, saftey goggles, gloves, dayglow orange vest, steel toed boots and evacuation manual.< This type of overkill really bothered me at Spaceship Earth in Epcot. They put in a long safety spiel during the beginning of the ride, warning you that your vehicle rotates backwards at one point. They also have blaring repeating audio as your vehicle is rotating, just to let you know that your vehicle is rotating. They had to do this because some stupid woman thought that the ride was going into roller coaster mode at this point and she didn't want to ride, so she stepped off into the dark and got hurt. The spiel, when they first put it in, went on all the way up the first tunnel, which used to have actual show elements that started the mood of the attraction. It really fried me that the ride had to suffer because of one idiot.
Originally Posted By crapshoot One act that DOSH attempted to put through was in regardes to the steam locomotives. Instead of considering the DLRR as one single Disneyland attraction, they tried to break it up into five seperate attractions. In other words, they wanted to reorganize things where each steam locomotive would be its own seperate attraction. That's bureaucracy running rampant.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Bureaucracy, or something similar, isn't limited to government agencies.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Bureaucracy, or something similar, isn't limited to government agencies.>> Well in the case of DOSH, it very much is.
Originally Posted By Manfried Its amazing how much we have to do for stupid people. Let's stop protecting idiots so that, according to Darwin, we eventually get rid of idiots by breeding them out of the gene pool.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros While I do recognize the inherent risk with operating an attraction like Alice, I do wonder why they selected that one, while there are several other attractions that pose far greater risks. For example, Peter Pan evacuations are far more dangerous, as the entire attraction is elevated, as opposed to just a short portion of Alice. And the really obvious one is the Monorail. If something happens and guests need to evacuate in a hurry, there's really nothing they can do. Again, a much greater percentage of the ride takes place far off the ground, so there's a much greater chance of having the emergency at a high point. There is precedent for catwalks all along a Monorail (the Vegas system has them, picture below), and I don't think they would look good for Disneyland. It's just strange that they singled out Alice, which seems to have such a small chance of danger in comparison (note: by no means do I think that they should do more regulations, they should just be consistent). <a href="http://wp.casinoguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/444.jpg" target="_blank">http://wp.casinoguide.com/wp-c.../444.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones If you feel that there is too much risk in operating Alice without railings, then I would suggest taking the bus the next time you visit Disneyland.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "Since it opened it is possible that a worker may have fallen off the thing while the park was closed and we'd never know about it." Not necessarily. The cast member would have tweeted it as they were falling off the thing.
Originally Posted By 2001DLFan <<crapshoot: ”You think putting the safety of guests first is stupid?” It isn't that safety first is stupid, it is however stupid to try and mitigate every possible contingency. How do you evac Monorails quickly? Can't be done. But fire is a real threat onboard the Monorail trains. The problem isn't a poor safety record at Disneyland, but rather Left Wing Government power units that are simply trying to justify their existence.>> Actually most of the over-the-top “safety issues” are due to Disney’s won “safety police” exercising their power. The Alice attraction is an example. OSHA didn’t make any demands on Disney to add safety railings. As I recall, an inspector offhandedly commented about the outside portion of the track. Disney overreacted by immediately shutting the attraction down. As there was no OSHA order to that effect, Disney COULD have asked Imagineering to develop a safety system that would not be obtrusive and have it installed during the next rehab.
Originally Posted By 2001DLFan <<Dr Hans Reinhardt: "No?" Yes, no. It's a basic principle that businesses are going to do what's best for businesses. Therefore they'll often compromise your safety as long as they think they can get away with it. One only has to look at the challenges faced by advocates of better regulations for the US automobile industry to see how resistant corporations can be when it comes to consumer safety.>> Businesses do what SOMEONE thinks is good for business. It doesn’t always work out that something actually WILL be good for business. If the wrong people are calling the shots (something that Disney has been saddled with in recent years), the results can be worse for business (DCA, Disney Studios Paris, Prom, etc.). For some reason, Disney has given their "safety" department power beyond common sense. They get attractions that have recommended safety standards or elements built. But then Disney requires extra steps beyond that. For the most part, many of the "safety recommendations" go beyond common sense and any actual needed safety requirements.
