Originally Posted By bean There is a big diference between those two decisions. TDS already has Mermaid lagoon as well as a couple attractions that can be enjoyed by families. DCA basically only had a water play area a carousel and jumping jelleyfish. Oh and by the way ITTBAB was in DCA since park opening. Flick's fun fair was added afterwards. FFF is basically the equivalent of mermaid lagoon in terms of attractions but with a completely diferent theming. Nothing wrong with adding FAMILY thrill rides as long as they have the consistency of other Disney attractions. Soarin, a raft ride or flume ride could very well accomplish that.
Originally Posted By bean bartholomewneff is correct. TDS had a large attendance number when the park opened and basically overdid expectations. One thing it did do and was expected but not at the high numbers it did was to cannabalize Tokyo Dinseyland. Soon after that TDS did see attendance numbers decline. The numbers have just recently stabalized when it celebrated its 5th anniversary. During its initial first and second year TDS actually went through the same concerns that DCA had. TDS was receiving critical praise for its theming but its low attraction count was a concern with guests. OLC had to make the dificult decisions to infuse more money into the park sooner then they wanted. Raging Spirits was a somewhat inexpensive addition that could be built at a reasonable amount of time. OLC agreed to the addition meanwhile TOT was also pushed forward. TOT actually took longer to open then they wished only because several studies and preperations ahd to be done to make sure that the reclaimed land it would be built on was stable enough for the towers massive weight in such a small footprint. If things had gone to plan and TDS had not had any dificulties TOT would not had opened when it didbut much later. Meanwhile OLC has done a great job in adding unique entertainment programs to the park.
Originally Posted By bean "While TDS may have had some fast tracking it is hardly in the shape DCA is with appealing to the board for a billion dollars that most of which will be for ripping out and replacing while as jonvn has pointed out these lame new guys really aren't adding that much. 2 Cs 2 Es and a mall. Well most of the $1.2 billion is for ripping out replacing and placemaking of existing structures. As jonvn pointed out not many attraction for $1.2 billion." The full 1.2 billion is not being used during the first phase only about 700 million. Also, the whole "ripping out" comment is not exactly true. MOST of the structures are staying. you would be amazed at how clever retheming and facade changes can completely make something feel and look diferently. I hate talking about TDS and DCA in the same phrase since I do not believe they should be compared to eachother. The only thing they have in common is the year they opened. Both parks had completely diferent budgeting and the corporations they were both financed with are in two completely diferent spectrums.
Originally Posted By bean "What happened to the $1.2 billion? I know about $100 mil for Mermaid, $200 mil for cars, that leaves $50 mil each for tractors and hubcaps. As far as attractions go $400 mil sounds about right. The viewing area for WoC. As the actual WoC show and TSMania have seperate budgets. And carsland. The rest is for placemaking of the Sun Court and Paradise Pier. $700 mil in phase one. The rest in phase 2 which a large part will be MORE placemaking in HPB, and CF and GP. Fixing the Hyperion. And maybe some attractions." Actually there are plans for severalmore attractions during phase two and possibly a phase three expansion. I can not give to much information but the whole entrance is about 70 million.
Originally Posted By bean "So bean, want to spill the beans and tell us about that Train ride? Or one of the other proposals for E tickets for DCA's Phase 2?" not really except that one would involve water.
Originally Posted By 2001DLFan <<bean: Also, the whole "ripping out" comment is not exactly true. MOST of the structures are staying. you would be amazed at how clever retheming and facade changes can completely make something feel and look diferently.>> Some areas will be relatively easy to change the facades. However, the rethemeing of the entrance shops will require quite a bit of “ripping out†as the shops will also be enlarged and expanded beyond the monorail bridge towards the entrance. << I hate talking about TDS and DCA in the same phrase since I do not believe they should be compared to eachother. The only thing they have in common is the year they opened. Both parks had completely diferent budgeting and the corporations they were both financed with are in two completely diferent spectrums.>> Also, OLC has a completely different attitude towards quality and creativity, more along the lines of how Lasseter thinks, as opposed to the way that Disney’s management generally approached their parks and attractions.
Originally Posted By bartholomewneff bean said: "not really except that one would involve water." Awwww, come on bean. You got to do better than that. Hehe. I can make a prediction that acurate. Watch this: I can't really tell you much about the new rides in phase 2, but let me just say one would involve air. Dhoh! Hehe... it's acurate of course. There's air all around the rides, the parks, the world. But it could mean anything. What land are you talking about? Golden State? PP? HPB? Oh, do you know if there are plans to expand the SF section in P2? It's pretty meager. And speaking of that, any plans to give the SF section we do have, a proper sidewalk? It screams out: cheap when I walk through it towards GRR. They should add a sidewalk or dig a road and use what is there for the sidewalk. But I digress. Hehe.
Originally Posted By dshyates "Both parks had completely diferent budgeting and the corporations they were both financed with are in two completely diferent spectrums." They shouldn't have been. The expansion of single park to a multipark resort is an identical project. One was a blockbuster hit out of the gate with sagging attendence after year 3. DCA was a flop out of the gate with slowly rising attendence. DCA stll gets less than half of attendence of TDS. And they are preparing the tear out the entire entrance to the weinie. Re fascade the pier. Re infrastructure the lagoon, who knew they would want a viewing area. Re fascade the hollywood area retheme condor flats. What areas of TDS are being flattened and rethemed? And is there even a word for Placemaking in Japanese?
Originally Posted By dshyates "Both parks had completely diferent budgeting and the corporations they were both financed with are in two completely diferent spectrums." Having worked in set design and construction for film and TV and having worked at Kings Dominion, Universal Studios Florida, and Disney-MGM I don't think I would be very surprised as to what will be ripped out. Yes most of the structures will stay as they are simply warehouses with fronts. Even in the entrance area the buildings will stay. I believe that 2001DLFan is wrong in that right now both of the store have entrances on both sides of the monorail bridge. The whole area will be refascaded. The letters, turnstiles, the train, the fountain and the hubcap will be the only actually bulldozed structures. That said to try and claim that they are leaving the verts as some sort of achievement from the original designers is a stretch.
Originally Posted By dshyates Sorry the quote from post 129 is wrong it should be: "Also, the whole "ripping out" comment is not exactly true. MOST of the structures are staying. you would be amazed at how clever retheming and facade changes can completely make something feel and look diferently."
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <"Also, the whole "ripping out" comment is not exactly true. MOST of the structures are staying. you would be amazed at how clever retheming and facade changes can completely make something feel and look diferently."> That's what I said quite some time ago; they will keep as many structures as they can, with clever facade changes. The whole "bulldozers" and "ripping out" cries are overheated. Disney has always done this; look how many times the two main TL buildings (north and south of the PM tracks) have been repurposed. And when you look at the budget for "phase one" apart from the attractions we know about, the balance is not simply for placemaking or changing what's already there. Some is, but some is for additions of non-attractions. The entrance way, for example is adding the Cathay theatre and Walt show, and it looks like the buildings leading up to it may extend south from the buildings already there (in other words, an addition). And all of Carsland is an addition, besides the actual attractions; there will obviously have to be at least one eatery (probably more), shops, and all the eye candy in between that goes with a new land.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < DCA stll gets less than half of attendence of TDS. > If TDS gets 10 million, and DCA gets 6.6 or whatever it was (over 6, anyway), that's not less than half.
Originally Posted By bartholomewneff Dabob2 said: "there will obviously have to be at least one eatery (probably more)" Mortimer Market, Clarabelle’s Corner Café, Seward’s Five & Dime will all have some form of eatery. This doesn't include PP where there will be the Beer Garden also.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Mortimer Market, Clarabelle’s Corner Café, Seward’s Five & Dime will all have some form of eatery. > Where are these going to be? I was referring to CarsLand and saying it was going to have to have at least one eatery. <This doesn't include PP where there will be the Beer Garden also.> This is replacing the current McD and Pizza place, so in this case it's a replacement and "ripping out" actually applies. I was pointing out that they were going to ADD non-attractions as well, and that all has to figured into that 700 million figure.
Originally Posted By bartholomewneff Sorry Dabob2, I though you were refering to the entire expansion concerning places to eat. All the places I was listing will be in Walt Disney Plaza. Except for the Beer Garden, of course. Oh, and don't forget about Ariel's Grotto getting its retheming as well. And it may not be called that when they're done, but it's not confirmed as of yet.
Originally Posted By bean "Some areas will be relatively easy to change the facades. However, the rethemeing of the entrance shops will require quite a bit of “ripping out†as the shops will also be enlarged and expanded beyond the monorail bridge towards the entrance. " That is what i capitolized MOST. but to be honest, the large mural really takes up a large piece of realestate at the entrance. The area is much larger than it seems and the buildings there will mostly get modified not completely torn down
Originally Posted By bean "I can't really tell you much about the new rides in phase 2, but let me just say one would involve air. Dhoh! Hehe... it's acurate of course. There's air all around the rides, the parks, the world. But it could mean anything. What land are you talking about? Golden State? PP? HPB?" Ok here it goes, it will involve boats on water and have a thrill aspect. It will also be in a land near a large mass of water and HPN and golden states also has proposels for new large attractions. Even the brand new land that will debut in 2012 already has a proposel for another large family attraction
Originally Posted By bean BEANS: "Both parks had completely diferent budgeting and the corporations they were both financed with are in two completely diferent spectrums." dshyates: "They shouldn't have been. The expansion of single park to a multipark resort is an identical project." You need to understand the diference between both corporations as well as the locality to understand why one had the benefit and reason to spend so much money more than the other. dshyates: "One was a blockbuster hit out of the gate with sagging attendence after year 3. DCA was a flop out of the gate with slowly rising attendence. DCA stll gets less than half of attendence of TDS. And they are preparing the tear out the entire entrance to the weinie. Re fascade the pier. Re infrastructure the lagoon, who knew they would want a viewing area. Re fascade the hollywood area retheme condor flats. What areas of TDS are being flattened and rethemed? And is there even a word for Placemaking in Japanese?" No one is arguing that TDS had a hit at opening. There are reasons for that. As for Placemaking for TDS, YES there actually has been discussions about changes that might be needed to that park. Not so much because of lack of detail but because of prolems with the parks layout and its limitations with future expansion. Much of that parks property is unexapandable and attractions have been looked into for modifications. The first one was Sinbad. A highly expansive well made attraction that has seen trouble attracting the interest of the Japanese. But dshyates i want you to understand that that this is not a DCA versus TDS topic and hope that you are not turning it into that. Like I previously said both parks should not even be compared. TDS is a masterpiece in WDI history but the truth is that it is not perfect. TDS does have its problems that have generally been ignored by the Disney fan base because for many reasons. The reality is that these parks are built to make money for the corporations and its stockholders if the returns are not what they expected it does not matter how perfect one thing is. DCA has been marked a failure by many and although it did open with MANY problems the park has been financially stable. Luckily there are people in Burbank now that realize the need to fix the ugly ducklings problems before they do get worse.
Originally Posted By bean Dabob2 Cars land will get a major eating facility very similiar to sci fi diner in MGM. It will also have other smaller eating facilities. If people look at the model and compare it to what DCA has already there in the entrance, they will notice that the main strip is basically the same. The gates will be pushed forward to where the letters are and once the mural is removed it will open up both sides of the entrance. This will reveal the hidden facades on each side which have courtyards. On the east courtyard you will have the gas station and on the west courtyard it will open up the area for the trolley station. At the end of the main stripp where the corner entrance is into Greetings of California, that area will include a large landscaped area to create the curve on the road and create a small courtyard right before the HPB entrance. Even the round facade in that area will be repurposed to match the new look.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<As for Placemaking for TDS, YES there actually has been discussions about changes that might be needed to that park. Not so much because of lack of detail but because of prolems with the parks layout and its limitations with future expansion. Much of that parks property is unexapandable and attractions have been looked into for modifications. >> I'm very interested in what other changes they have planned for the park. I agree that some of the lands are somewhat landlocked. How do they plan to solve this problem? Restructuring some of the backstage areas? I know there is at least enough space for 3-4 E-ticket attractions without much work needed to move stuff around.
