Originally Posted By fkurucz <<And just what percentage of hostages have we been able to free in Iraq? At least none of our hostages in Iran were beheaded.>> Like I already said, the current admin isn't doing a great job either.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>As for the 'botched' rescue mission, I can assure you that Carter had absolutely nothing to do with formulating the plan or carrying it out.<< He was the commander in chief. The buck stopped with him.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<I would have to say Bush is worse because of the way world opinion has turned against the United States because of his actions.>> The Iranians didn't seem too crazy about us during the Carter admin.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip And the buck stopped with Bush for 9/11. That doesn't mean it was his fault that it was not prevented.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The Iranians didn't seem too crazy about us during the Carter admin.??>> I don't mind having the Iranians mad at us. It is having our allies mad at us that I'm not real fond of. And worse than them being mad at us, they are disgusted with us. Not a good place to be.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***>>As for the 'botched' rescue mission, I can assure you that Carter had absolutely nothing to do with formulating the plan or carrying it out.<< He was the commander in chief. The buck stopped with him.*** I agree with that. And as I recall the situation left him with egg on his face, further exacerbating the whole vietnam "we're not all that powerful" syndrome...which Reagan turned around. Love him or hate him, Reagan made America a powerful country again. ***<<I would have to say Bush is worse because of the way world opinion has turned against the United States because of his actions.>> The Iranians didn't seem too crazy about us during the Carter admin.*** I don't think many people on earth really care what the iranian government thinks about things. I agree with the sentiment...Bush II has, much more than Carter, made the whole world hate our guts. And it sucks even more because they were COMPLETELY on our side after the attacks. But blunder after blunder, plus the whole cowboy diplomacy thing, has made pretty much the entire planet hate America. Nice going, Bush. nd the buck stopped with Bush for 9/11. That doesn't mean it was his fault that it was not prevented. ***I disagree. A lot of warning signs were ignored.*** In fairness, I will respectfully chock this up to "I can't believe this will really happen". Seriously. They might have heard some chatter, even known about some terrorist "plots"...but I honestly believe that the government of the United States was just as taken aback and horrified as the rest of us. I don't really buy into the conspiracy theories here (although, I do FIRMLY believe that 9/11, and the sentiment and the mandate that came from it, was horribly exploited and used to further GWB's aims. **<The Iranians didn't seem too crazy about us during the Carter admin.??>> I don't mind having the Iranians mad at us. It is having our allies mad at us that I'm not real fond of. And worse than them being mad at us, they are disgusted with us. Not a good place to be.** Completely agree with this.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh Yes, the French were so mad at us they elected the pro-American guy. The Germans and Australians did as well.
Originally Posted By Mr X Doug, do you really think that world sentiment, right now, is "pro-America"? If so, I must be talking to all the wrong people (all my Japanese friends, who say "America sucks" and "Bush is a war-monger"). But I guess Europe is totally backing us now?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Doug, do you really think that world sentiment, right now, is "pro-America"?> I don't think that world sentiment has ever been "pro-America". <If so, I must be talking to all the wrong people (all my Japanese friends, who say "America sucks" and "Bush is a war-monger").> Probably so. Remember the famous quote, "How could Nixon have won? Nobody I know voted for him." <But I guess Europe is totally backing us now?> Too often, Europe pursues its own interests, and not the interests of the world. Of course, we do the same on occasion.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And the buck stopped with Bush for 9/11. That doesn't mean it was his fault that it was not prevented. < no, I blame Clinton for letting all that planning go on undetected....
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And it sucks even more because they were COMPLETELY on our side after the attacks. But blunder after blunder, plus the whole cowboy diplomacy thing, has made pretty much the entire planet hate America. < please, aside from the UK -- tell me which allies were ' completely' on our side ? That is simply not true...many countries may support us -- to a point - let me know which allies have changed their stance and when they were at 100% support of anything we do. Do some like us less - absolutely - but let's not get carried away with this picture of all these countries waving their flags on the front lines of anything with us.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>please, aside from the UK -- tell me which allies were ' completely' on our side ?<< On 9/12/07, the list was long. Even going into Afghanistan. But going into Iraq and the years that conflict has dragged on, the list grows shorter.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 does Russia or China support us less than before - no -- their own interests in the middle east always did and still do take precendence. If they hate us so much now then why support the Korean efforts ? Why because they have no economic interests there...which they do in Iran. France - oh yeah, they always had our backs Germany - under Merkle is more pro American now than it has been in 20 years.. The whole ' cowboy' thing makes nice print for some of the hacks that have nothing else to do but bash any administration in office... but none of our Allies have changed their position that much -- okay maybe Spain -- they had a terrorist attack that changed an election 3 days before - and convenient to blame that on support of the US -- even though this was far from their first attack and many are internal struggles. Yes, I believe the current admin wrankles some countries more than others - and maybe more than we should - but to think that any European countries ( most of our real allies ) - or Australia have completely changed their stance on us, when it comes to world priorities I just don't see.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>please, aside from the UK -- tell me which allies were ' completely' on our side ?<< On 9/12/07, the list was long. Even going into Afghanistan. But going into Iraq and the years that conflict has dragged on, the list grows shorter.< The list for what ? Who sent in all kinds of troops ( other than a nice expedition force to keep trade markets open , and it looked nice ) -- I am not talking about lip service allies, I am talking about REAL allies... the lip service stuff is mostly nonsense -- one thing said to the press - yet in business / trade agreements nothing changes.. And if a larger scale war breaks out -- where will these countries come calling for assistance ? If I am one of these smaller countries, and I get a certain % of my oil from Iran, or I have a large Muslim population such as France does now...I say the same things we all hear on sound bites...it sounds good....yeah that Bush is a SOB....imperialistic America etc. --- if they were really upset with us it would show up in economic / trade changes -- that has not happened... I hope no one was ever counting on Russia or China as solid, we've got your back America type allies -- that has never been true, nor do I expect it to be.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Sorry, that should be 9/12/01 obviously...< really ? Did China / Russia commit troops to fighting the global war on terror ? No different than did we send military aid to Russia when they had all the Chechnian issues ? Of course not --- if you want to say there was more world sympathy for us immediately after 9/11 - yes I buy that....but more people allied under all we stand for - no.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 And I am in no way trying to support all the policies of the current administration....I don't buy into, nor like a lot of them either...I just don't think in reality the world landscape of real allies has changed very dramatically.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Who sent in all kinds of troops<< Not many. That's what happens in a "pre-emptive" war, as we've learned the hard way. This administration thumbed its nose at the UN, and by extension, other nations in the process. That doesn't do a lot to get countries rallying around you and offering up their troop support. We projected an image of "we don't need anyone's help, to hell with you if you're not one of the 'willing'. It was this administrations standard operating procedure -- insult anyone who doesn't agree with the war.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>Who sent in all kinds of troops<< Not many. That's what happens in a "pre-emptive" war, as we've learned the hard way. This administration thumbed its nose at the UN, and by extension, other nations in the process. < okay, who else sent troops to rescue Kuwait from being taken over ? That does not fall under your pre-emptive banner ? Which of our allies ( or Kuwaits allies) that we have since upset so ? The UN would still be 'negotitating' what to do there also. the notion of all these allies holds little water any more - nor does the concept of the UN. ( I am not happy about that, but it appears to be true ) -- How much help has the UN provided Darfur ? it's a paper entity
