Originally Posted By RoadTrip X and jonvn have far larger problems about religion than will ever be solved here. Although they are railing against Catholics in this thread, they basically think all religion is bogus. Which is certainly their right. But if they believe all religions are bogus, what the hell gives them any right to comment on what religions we belong to?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper jonvn...because I'm Catholic you've got me angry. Because I'm Christian I'm done with the conversation. Believe whatever you want. I'll have a seat waiting for you at church on Sunday if you'd like to talk more. I'm there every week.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I think I can also be a catholic without being a pedophile" No one said that every catholic is a pedophile. Just that by continuing to be a member, you are supporting an organization that protects them. "You also make it sound like Catholics go to worship the Priests, Bishops and Cardinals." I'm sorry, but I never said any such thing. However, what exactly does "primacy of the pope" mean? "I am not going to move out of the USA because I think George W. is dishonest." Again, this is a matter of choice. You may not like Bush, but he is there for only a short period of time longer. Now, if you don't like the system of government we have here and what it does, then yes, you should move. If you can. "I refuse to be blamed for whatever atrocities happened before I was born " That's fine. No one is blaming you. However, if you do support an organization that does these things, and has done these things for a very long time, then I have to ask what would it finally take? I mean, they are raping children. And systematically covering it up. All over the world. "I did not sanction then nor do I sanction now the terrible things done to children by a few bad priests" In looking for stats on this, which I have heard the figure was anywhere between 5% and 10% of priests doing this, I have run across a lot of backpeddling and excuse making. Like "it's not really pedophila, because many of these children were not pre-puberty." I swear... And really, that's the real problem. Not that you have a few whacko priests doing these things. That can happen anywhere. But that the organization of the catholic church worked very hard to cover these CRIMES up, and shunted these CRIMINALS off to another parish where they could prey fresh upon another set of families. IF this was looked upon as a horrible crime, the priests defrocked and sent to prison, there'd be no scandal. There'd be no discussion, and there'd be no problem. But the fact is that in a system wide manner, this was not only allowed to happen but that it was made easier for these creeps to do this sort of thing. "I don't think all Germans are bad because Hitler was a power hungry, insane, evil man." I don't think Germans are bad at all, any more than any other people. I even owned a Beetle at one time, Hitler's car. Germany ran into a bad spate, and the nation became desperate for a leader. Unfortunately, they chanced upon an absolute psychotic. They seem to hold a fascination. Germany suffered quite a bit at Hitler's hand, too. They got their payback, with millions of their own dead, all their cities destroyed, and their reputation as an advanced culture of decent people destroyed by this stain that will last forever. Be that as it may, what is going on with these priests is not hindsight. It is current sight. I like the Boy Scouts, but if it was found out that the counselors were having the children, and the people in charge were covering up, that'd be it. They'd no longer have my trust, they'd no longer have my support. Any organization that violates trust, and a trust that they specifically were given, such as the well being of the families they are looking after, simple does not merit any further support from any reasonable person.
Originally Posted By jonvn "they basically think all religion is bogus." Yes. Catholics, Jews, Moslems, it's all the same. It's all false. "what the hell gives them any right to comment on what religions we belong to?" Belong to whatever you want. Join NAMBLA if you want. But if I were religious, I would never be part of anything that supports child rape in any form. That is kind of a deal breaker. Know what, I'm not religious. And I still won't belong to any group or organization that supports child rape. I guess I'm just odd that way, huh? "because I'm Catholic you've got me angry." I'm not the one you should be angry at. You should be angry at the people in your church who did all these things. The ones who covered it up, and the ones who are still doing it today, and have yet to be caught. I understand that people need to have some sort of religion in their life, be it the worship of rocks, or some shaman telling a hunting spirit story around the campfire, or the pope, it's all about the same. But when the people you put your faith in does this sort of thing, I can not see how you can't go to another one of these religions, which believes almost the exact same thing anyway. I mean, do Episcopalians have this issue? There hardly is a difference between the two churches. Why not go there? "I'm there every week." Church creeps me out. I've been a few times. People behaving in an utterly irrational manner makes me feel sad for the species and mildly nauseous.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <IF this was looked upon as a horrible crime, the priests defrocked and sent to prison, there'd be no scandal. There'd be no discussion, and there'd be no problem. But the fact is that in a system wide manner, this was not only allowed to happen but that it was made easier for these creeps to do this sort of thing.> I'm a Christian and certainly can't agree with everything jonvn is saying, but he hit it on the head there. If they had dealt with these people appropriately, defrocked them and turned them over to civil authorities, there is no scandal. Because they not only failed to do that, but covered up, and moved the men around to where they could continue to do what they did - THAT is the scandal, as much or more so than the actual abuse.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon Just for the record, I am not Catholic. But as one who belongs to a Christian sect that has been the target of bigoted assaults for quite some time I can empathize deeply with my Catholic brethren in Christ who have to see their traditions mocked by those more anxious to run down Christianity in general as the tone of this thread demonstrates. I think a more interesting statistic that should be investigated is just how many of the priests found to be guilty of deviant behavior come from seminaries and backgrounds that are quite theologically liberal on a lot of matters? That would ultimately say plenty about whether it's the longstanding institution of "the Church" that must be blamed, or whether in fact it's a problem more exacerbated by those with a more libertine theologically view of the world and their attempts to conform to it.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost "primacy of the pope" Not only do I not know what it means, I don't think it exists. It's a new one on me. I guess it means "head of the church" and in that case, I guess it's true. I just don't see what this has to do with anything. If you mean "infallibility of the pope" then I can respond. The primary misconception about that is that people think that no matter what the Pope says or does he cannot be wrong. That is not what that means. On very rare occasions when the Pope is interpreting a doctrine of the church he is known to be "infallible". It is kind of a misnomer because all it really means is that the Pope is the Chairman of the Board, so to speak, of the Catholic Church. If he makes a statement concerning doctrine, while seated on the throne of Peter, then he is said to be always correct because he is the guy who was given the responsibility of making that decision. He can only be contradicted by having his successor change it or if he changes it himself. The Pope has made no such declaration nor can he, say the molesting of children is OK in the eyes of God. That is not church doctrine. The past leaders of the Church did sweep it under the carpet...today not so much. The reason why I put in the parts about how I am not responsible for things past was because of that. I didn't know about them so I couldn't react to the human element of the church. I know now and I will fight to change that but that doesn't mean that I am going to give up my belief in my God because some idiots, of the human persuasion, let bad things happen and then covered them up. The two are not the same thing. You will notice that I have not said anything bad about people that do not believe in religion. But you seem to be bent on blaming every Catholic in the country for the bad behavior of a few. Believe me we are as upset by this as anyone. It's just that we can separate the religious beliefs from the completely corruptible humans that work within it.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I can't change what I fundamentally believe every time someone in a "leadership" role does something that is contradictory to that belief. No matter how much conservative bashing goes on and no matter how effective or ineffective I think the Republicans are...I can't just turn off my "Republican" switch and turn on a "Democrat" switch. Of course the church cover up is a sin...probably more egregious than the original sin. But, it doesn't change the fundamentals I believe in. Life would be so much easier if I didn't have a party affiliation, religion, a sex drive, etc. I mean, wouldn't it? But then again, who said life was supposed to be easy? If you think I support the church's actions/inactions over the sex abuse issue merely because I continue to be a Catholic I would argue THAT is irrational and nothing I can say really matters.
Originally Posted By jonvn "who have to see their traditions mocked" So, you're saying that raping children and having the church protect the rapists is a tradition? OK! Makes about as much sense as the rest of what you are saying. "Not only do I not know what it means, I don't think it exists." OK, well, here is a discussion about it, if you want from EWTN: <a href="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIMPOPE.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ewtn.com/library/AN SWERS/PRIMPOPE.htm</a> "The primary misconception about that is that people think that no matter what the Pope says or does he cannot be wrong." That is how it used to be. Now he is infallible in the areas of faith and morals. "The Pope has made no such declaration nor can he, say the molesting of children is OK in the eyes of God." Actions speak louder than words. "that doesn't mean that I am going to give up my belief in my God" Who said you should? In fact, I directly stated that people should go to a different church, if that is something they feel they need to do. "You will notice that I have not said anything bad about people that do not believe in religion." Feel free. Some who don't go too far, as well. "But you seem to be bent on blaming every Catholic in the country for the bad behavior of a few. " I am blaming people for continuing to support an organization that has shown itself to be of the lowest moral character. That is what I blame them for. The religious beliefs you have can almost wholly be satisfied elsewhere.
Originally Posted By jonvn "...believe every time someone in a "leadership" role does something that is contradictory to that belief." Well, you see, this is the issue: It's not one guy doing this. It's the entire system doing this. All over the world, repeatedly. "who said life was supposed to be easy?" It's not always, but then, some things are rather clear to me. Child rape is not something I want to be in any way associated with. "I support the church's actions/inactions over the sex abuse issue merely because I continue to be a Catholic I would argue THAT is irrational" You support an organization that condoned and basically assisted in child molestation. Do you support the actual molestations? Probably not, no, just the people who did. Everyone has a conscience, telling us what is right and what is wrong. There is absolutely no way I could ever in good conscience associate with any sort of group such as this. If I found out that IBM was hiding pedophiles as a quiet corporate policy, I'd stop buying from IBM, and buy from someone else. It's pretty cut and dried for me.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper "Probably not". Nice. jonvn...are you telling me that nowhere in your past has there been a group that represented you that you didn't take exception with...yet remain in that group anyway? I have news for you. Your name should now be Jesus Christ because you are without sin. Pleased to meet you. Some said you would be returning. It isn't the entire system doing it jonvn. It might make your argument seem more palatable if you assert that to be true...but it isn't.
Originally Posted By jonvn "jonvn...are you telling me that nowhere in your past has there been a group that represented you that you didn't take exception with...yet remain in that group anyway?" There is one thing to take exception to something that reasonable people can disagree with. But when that thing is condoning child rape, I tend to draw the line. "It isn't the entire system doing it jonvn." Well, you see, there is the explicit and the implicit, and while it is not explicitly condoned, again, actions speak louder than words. The same things were happening all over this country, and all over the world, and most likely are continuing but are just not yet caught. So, it is system wide, it is pervasive, and I wouldn't have anything to do with it. If it happened in isolation, I could go along with what you are saying, but the problem is not an isolated one, not at all. If, for example, the Republican party had a scandal where a member was having sex with an underage person in their care, and the leadership of the party knew about this CRIMINAL behavior and either looked the other way or helped cover it up, I'd not be a member of the republican party, either. Oh...wait...they did that too....but that at least really was a bit more isolated. The people involved should all be kicked out of the republican party for their actions, and the regular membership should insist on it, but hey, they didn't, because it'd affect congressional party politics. This has nothing to do with your religion. It has to do with basic common decency and who you support and what you think is right or wrong and how you express that.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I am going to make this one statement and then be done with this discussion. It is going nowhere because reasonable thought does not enter into it. To condemn an entire religious belief because a few people within it were not acting in accordance with established moral laws, is as closed minded as anyone can get. Therefore, there is no use in continuing this any further. >>>"The primary misconception about that is that people think that no matter what the Pope says or does he cannot be wrong." That is how it used to be. Now he is infallible in the areas of faith and morals.<<< No, that is never how it was, not ever. Just because a few people didn't bother to find out what was meant by it doesn't mean it was a fact. That definition was made popular by misinformed people that feared catholicism and wanted to put fear and distorted truths in the minds of the easily lead. That did not make it correct.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<If I found out that IBM was hiding pedophiles as a quiet corporate policy, I'd stop buying from IBM, and buy from someone else. It's pretty cut and dried for me.>> I'm sure it is. Someday as you age and mature you will discover the million shades of grey that life holds.
Originally Posted By Mr X **as far as a priest for life- that's fine, but sequester them to themselves - with ZERo access to children or others...the moving them around bit really was lousy.** I really can't believe some of what I'm reading. What about the "turn them over to the police for prosecution" option. I guess protecting their priestly image was far more important than the young victims, right? Again, this is an organized group, they had all the options open to them and they chose to cover up the crimes en masse. How is this different from the Japanese government looking the other way while all those Korean women were raped? The answer is it isn't any different. The entire church should be held accountable for their many crimes.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I guess protecting their priestly image was far more important than the young victims, right?>> I don't see anyone in this thread defending the abusive priests. I don't see anyone in this defending the Church for covering it up. I see some people saying that they recognize the evil present in those actions (committed by humans), but choose to forgive the Church for their mistakes and move on. That is what all of Christianity is predicated on. Forgiveness. With your views being what they are, I'm sure you don't understand the concept.
Originally Posted By Mr X **As long as you are a member of this church, knowing that they are engaging in this behavior in a systemic manner, then you're supporting that behavior.** But Jon, you are forgetting the brainwashing/fear aspect. The church is infalible, no other church is "real", you must go to church regularly, you must obey all the rules... Or you will BURN for ETERNITY. There's a lot of guilt, fear, and brainwashing going on...it's very difficult for someone raised in that environment to turn their back and walk away.
Originally Posted By Mr X **You belong to an organization that is utterly and completely voluntary. This organization has for many years engaged in utterly disgraceful behavior. Do you remain and continue to give them your time, attention and money?** Well said. Once again, though, giving them your time and money is mandatory...that whole fear and brainwashing thing again.
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