Originally Posted By RoadTrip You really don't want to go there. Or at least you shouldn't. Your view of Catholics is similar to how some people put down gay folk because of the abuses of NAMBLA. You cannot judge any group based on the actions of the members on the fringe. You must judge the group based on the actions of the great majority. Do some gay guys rape boys? Yes. Do the majority of gay guys rape boys? No. Do some Priests rape boys? Yes. Do the majority of Priests rape boys? No. What's the difference?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The point is that the Catholic Faith is not the enemy here...it is the leaders, hopefully mostly past leaders, that tolerated and downplayed that behavior. That doesn't in anyway imply that the members of this belief condone it or support it's cover up< but to argue this with someone who thinks all religions are some hokey side show...is wasting your time which is why I will not engage directly on this......to some religion is the problem.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I know some ex-Catholics who have joined born again churches because they are rather unhappy with the Catholic church. It's entirely possible to remain a Christian and not be a Catholic.< no different than it is entirely possible to be a Catholic an not support child abuse -- Catholicism is a set of beliefs, and for all the crapola here that 'well there are other faiths that are close..just change..." is not how religion works. It is not like choosing the color pants one is going to wear that day. You say we support the abuse-- many catholics have worked hard to expose this issue ( one principal in Chicago lost her career over it recently) - so that statement is bull.... Do 95% of Catholics support the clergy regardess of what has gone on - absolutely not. But sorry, one does not throw out 2000 years without trying to fix the issue that it faces today. It needs to be fixed, and immediately..and those in charge need to take ownership for the actions that occured - yes. personally we stopped donating general cash to the church 3 years ago ( and donations are down across the board) -- we donate time and materials to our local church because I know that helps my place of worship survive....and the benefit stays in my community... each has to do what they think is right...but the blanket condemnation of Catholicism and putting all believers in one bucket is prejudice period, regardless of what you want to call it.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <No one here has explained at all why they can not be Episcopalian instead of Roman Catholic. I see almost no differences between them at all in what they believe. < abortion allowance, women priests/bishops, the role of the virgin Mary -- just what the heck would you consider major differences ? Please stop with the conversion nonsense, as obviosuly religion makes no sense to you, so why try and 'guide' others ?
Originally Posted By Mr X >>I appreciate your thought, but where would you send us?<< I wouldn't send you anywhere, personally. You know how I feel about organized religion. However, there are plenty of churches out there, and I would say you should fund and devote time to one that isn't the perpetrator of a massive coverup involving raped kids. Like Jon said (and I agree), sure nothing is perfect but there are certain deeds where you have to draw the line and rape (and covering up for rapists) is one of them. >>although the Church itself has amassed great wealth, no Catholic Priest or Bishop or Cardinal or Pope is rich.<< Oh come on now. The Pope might not be "technically" rich, but he lives a life of opulance unrivaled by even the billionaires of the world. He can have anything he wants. John Paul used to fly around in a chartered CONCORDE, for pete's sake. You think that was really necessary? No, it was cool and showed off how RICH he was. I'm certain the Cardinals don't live in squalor either.
Originally Posted By Mr X **<The fact that the catholics continue the antiquated celibacy rules certainly exacerbates the problem here, and other christian churches with leaders who are able to marry do not invite such attrocities to begin with. < so you are saying married people or people who are nor celibate do not commit these tyoe of crimes ? Please.** Of course not. What I am saying is that trying to avoid sex altogether can exacerbate what is already a problem, like I said. Besides that, there has to be some serious phycological issues for some of these guys who would agree to something as extreme as (supposed) celibacy. Perhaps they are trying/hoping that they can somehow avoid sex altogether because "they're not supposed to now"...and then they find that they can't. In some cases.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Your view of Catholics is similar to how some people put down gay folk because of the abuses of NAMBLA." My view of Catholics is absolutely nothing like that. As far as I know, gay people do not, in general, support NAMBLA. Furthermore, you really don't have a choice in being gay, you do have a choice what church you attend. "What's the difference?" The difference is that the organizational hierarchy of the church aided these people in their crimes, knew about them for decades, allowed thousands to be molested, and would have continued doing so if it were not for the lawsuits coming out now from it. It's not about priests molesting kids so much, as the cover up. Again: IF the hierarchy took steps to separate these criminals from society, like defrocking them and contacting the police, then there would be no issue. You really can't know who is going to end up being a child molester. But once you find out someone is one, YOU DON'T SEND THEM TO ANOTHER PARISH! You see, what they did was instead of instilling a climate of disapproval for such behavior, they created a climate of quiet acceptance. They encouraged the actions and allowed them to go on. These people haven't lost their jobs, even though they basically became accessories to rape. And this is a failing of the church even more so. That even though it has been found out that these people assisted in setting up known rapists with a place where they could rape more, they are still doing what they were doing. So it is still going on just as before.
Originally Posted By Mr X **why try and 'guide' others ?** Hopefully not putting words in Jon's mouth here, but I really don't think he (or I for that matter) would bother with that if not for the fact that the first reaction to critisizing someones religious leaders is something along the lines of "you are trying to make me reject God? You bastard! you are just trying to tear me away from God!"... Or something similar. So, he points out that other options are available if one still wants religion but also wants to stop supporting and funding a corrupt group.
Originally Posted By jonvn "someone who thinks all religions are some hokey side show" I do. But there are some hokey side shows that don't involve system-wide sexual abuse of children. If I were to pick a hokey side show, I'd probably go with the one that didn't have that as one of it's offerings.
Originally Posted By jonvn "It is not like choosing the color pants one is going to wear that day." The fact is they are almost identical. And unless you follow absolutely every aspect of the Roman Catholic church, and I find it hard to believe that people all do all the things you are exactly supposed to, you are already not doing some things anyway. "one does not throw out 2000 years without trying to fix the issue that it faces today." I'm sorry, but you have not been a member for 2000 years. There are religions far older than that. They manage to get by without raping kids and systematically covering it over. "the blanket condemnation of Catholicism and putting all believers in one bucket is prejudice" No. Prejudice is prejudging something without knowing any facts. But we know facts. We know that these rapes have been going on for decades, if not centuries. We know it's been aided by the church. We know that the people responsible still have positions of authority within the organization. We know these things. We know that in LA alone, they are going to be spending hundreds of millions of dollars in damages. That would be your tithe money that you gave for whatever reason. WE also know that if you were to have this be ANY other type of business, there would be no question regarding whether or not you would continue to support them. You would not. For example, if the place you took your laundry to employed a child molester, is that the fault of the laundromat once he got caught? Of course not. What if the owners of that laundromat helped the rapist by assisting in hiding his crimes at one location, and then quietly moved him to another so he could rape people there, too? First, the people doing that would go to jail, second, I kind of would stop patronizing that laundromat. Of course with a religion there are questions of faith. But there are so many other options out there for basically the same concepts, there really is no reason, and not one explained here, at all why anyone would stay with the Roman Catholic church. Become a Lutheran, Episcopalian, or Eastern Orthodox. While they do a few little things slightly differently they are all basically the same idea.
Originally Posted By jonvn A story from Emo Phillips: I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.
Originally Posted By jonvn My guess is that the above joke is why people can't become Episcopalians...since otherwise no one seems able to explain why.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>We know that in LA alone, they are going to be spending hundreds of millions of dollars in damages. That would be your tithe money that you gave for whatever reason.<< Actually, Jon, apparently they have some sort of molestation insurance plan in place at this point. <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2170482/nav/tap3/" target="_blank">http://www.slate.com/id/217048 2/nav/tap3/</a> So the tithe money more likely goes into the monthly payments so they're covered for future rapes.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<So the tithe money more likely goes into the monthly payments so they're covered for future rapes.>> I'll meet your rapes and raise you ten.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <My guess is that the above joke is why people can't become Episcopalians...since otherwise no one seems able to explain why.< did explain why, you chose not to review I guess...I believe abortion is murder ( even though I understand all the arguments for at certain times)- the Episcopalian church does not under some circumstances-- now no matter what side of the fence one is on in that argument - it is a MAJOR difference. Most religiouspeople donot change their beliefs like they change their socks - and whether one follows everything to the letter of the law or not, believing it is right or wrong makes up your belief. To you one or the other doesn't matter, to most, it does. Makes your life easier, but I wouldn't change with you for anything.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh gee... Here's an article. Says the church is going to fight this problem. Hard to do when everyone who did it still is in place. But, the interesting thing I saw in here was that in Ireland, an extremely Catholic country, ALL BUT ONE of the nation's seminaries were closed due to repeated sex scandals. This is simply not an isolated problem. <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/07/17/international/i101524D80.DTL&tsp=1" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/07/17/international/i101524D80.DTL&tsp=1</a>
Originally Posted By vbdad55 " So the tithe money more likely goes into the monthly payments so they're covered for future rapes." congratulations-- truly one of the most insensitve and idiotic statements I have ever read here or anywhere.... following goofy away from this hate fest... If the world was completely atheistic -- all the ills would be resolved -- I got it.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I'm on record as not understanding why anyone would be a Catholic, but even I have a problem with this last statement: "So the tithe money more likely goes into the monthly payments so they're covered for future rapes." I don't care for Roger Mahoney, I agree he's one of the most hypocritical individuals (among those who are hugely influential) I've ever come across. There likely is a special place in hell for him, much to his surprise. Just the same, I completely understand why Catholics aren't abandoning their faith over this. I strongly feel that Bush has abandoned me, this country and the Constitution but it doesn't mean I'm renouncing my citizenship and moving to Canada. Instead, I'll do what I can to work from within and affect change. Same for the people who remain Catholic.
