Originally Posted By ecdc >>Instead, I'll do what I can to work from within and affect change. Same for the people who remain Catholic.<< I'm not sure this analogy, again, works though. Most religions do not offer an opportunity for people to affect change. You and I can vote in the next U.S. elections, we can write our congressmen, we can run for office ourselves. Religion, including Catholicism, does not usually allow for these kinds of things. Sure people can write letters and complain all they want (however, I strongly suspect those defending the faith have not done that, nor expressed in any other way their displeasure to church authorities over the way this was handled) but because religions deal in "ultimate truth" and the "word of God" they too often ignore what their followers think or want. All they can do is vote with their feet. They can stop going to church. Growth is everything to religion, and if they won't listen to anything else, they will listen to empty pews. I'll add, I reject the notion that the Catholic church is not its leaders. At some point, it becomes difficult to separate the two - it certainly isn't as obvious or clear a distinction as some have implied. Is one priest in one area "the church?" Certainly not. But as the numbers grow, and the church continues to remain silent in what steps they've taken to combat this and punish the guilty, and condemn others who simply moved people around, it does become more and more of an institutional issue. And again, those defending the church, tell us what steps you've taken to let your displeasure be known? What have you done to affect change in your religion? I know that no one who has remained in the church supports child abuse. Not by a long shot. But religion, again, seems to get a pass. Because it is believed to be sent from God or divine in some way, people won't challenge it or question it because they feel like they'd be questioning God. To return to the country analogy, it's why so many foreign countries (rightly) have a problem with America. They don't buy the logic that "Well, the leaders aren't America; America is the people who believe in freedom and capitalism." To one degree, America is our leaders, and they've stained our good name - same applies here. Finally, this and the other thread are a fantastic reminder of why I'm no longer religious. Like Dabob, I certainly don't follow all of jonvn's reasoning or logic, and I don't agree that people should automatically leave their faith. But, I have observed throughout this thread and the other on this topic, that he has not (at least in the posts I've read) made any personal attacks. He's simply shown through his own reasoning, and continued to suggest, that it is incongruous to remain in an organization like the church after the organization protected child molesters. Yet he has been subjected to some serious vitriol and profanity because of what he thinks about religion and some people's sacred cow. Religions too often demand tolerance from everyone yet show none themselves. Whenever someone criticizes religion (as jonvn does) as a fairy tale, or Jesus as the grown-up version of Santa Claus, people gasp with horror and respond with a "how dare you!" kind of tone. Yet they quietly, with apparently no thought to how others might take this, belong to groups that routinely tell non-believers and non-members that they're going to roast in hell, or at the very least, have that as part of their theology. Religion can do so much good, but it can also be so poisonous, all because grown adults, most of whom have no clue how their sacred texts came about and how their religion really developed, bicker and fight over something that, by definition, cannot be proven or demonstrated.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>do you read these 2 threads at all ? Apparently not. I already stated I stopped giving general money 3 years ago, I donate time and equipment to my local Catholic church so Iknow where the money goes. Many others doing the same as we try and change the system from within -- as opposed to cutting and running..<< No need to be rude. I forgot that you wrote about that, sorry. That's certainly better than nothing.
Originally Posted By Mr X ecdc, you said it all brutha. Thanks for that excellent post. And I also think that those who attacked Jon should read and re-read this part... **I have observed throughout this thread and the other on this topic, that he has not (at least in the posts I've read) made any personal attacks. He's simply shown through his own reasoning, and continued to suggest, that it is incongruous to remain in an organization like the church after the organization protected child molesters. Yet he has been subjected to some serious vitriol and profanity because of what he thinks about religion and some people's sacred cow. Religions too often demand tolerance from everyone yet show none themselves.** Many of you owe Jon an apology, but I'm not expecting anything.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I don't owe either of you apolgies. On the contrary. Now, I will agree that there was some pretty un-Christian like behavior on the part of others. Was it baited? Yes. Was it necessary? No. And, I would just add that I have not once asked you to believe in what I believe nor have I commented at all on your regligion, or lack thereof. "Judge not....".
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <bicker and fight over something that, by definition, cannot be proven or demonstrated.> Boy howdy.
Originally Posted By Mr X Seems RoadTrip has crossed into unintelligible at this point. We broke him (somebody call a doctor!).
Originally Posted By barboy Hey X, How's it "shakin" back there in Japan?-- Did you feel that last quake? I can take a Kansas tornado, California mudslides and floods, a Philippine typhoon and a Florida hurricane but nothing, I mean nothing scares the living daylights out of me like an earthquake.
Originally Posted By jonvn And this is why the problem will not go away. I guess if one of these guys has their own kid molested, maybe the attitude will change. Until then, I guess it's not bad enough.
Originally Posted By Mr X Seriously, this thread has gone absolutely FREUDIAN at this point. As though a bunch of otherwise normal people suddenly feel their ego and very center of being were in grave peril. Kinda creepy. Honestly, if this were a "live" conversation I'd leave before the first punch got thrown! And RoadTrip at this point, even after I asked him to leave, keeps chiming in with anger and nonsense like a monkey flinging feces. And this is a guy who seems to post pretty normally usually. Amazing!
Originally Posted By onlyme I don't want to start a thread, can I just go 'off topic' for just a second? Please, someone tell me that this isn't true. My wife and I were walking our dog last night and she told me a story, a horrific story in my opinion, about something that happened to a co-worker/friend of hers, the previous weekend. Well, this nice, quiet lady helps during her church's communion. Well, she slipped and dropped the plate of wafers(for the communion). It seems that when you drop the communion wafers, it's not enough to be humiliated; it's not enough to be asked to pick them all up while everyone waits. Oh no, it goes beyond this. When you drop the communion tray, you are required to, right then and there, in front of everyone, TO EAT THEM ALL! Every last one of them. What's the purpose of this rule? Is being publicly humiliated some type of recompense for your 'sin' of dropping a tray? I was speechless. It's the most STUPID thing I've ever heard. Whatever the reason, it's just plain stupid.
Originally Posted By Mr X **Until then, I guess it's not bad enough.** Hey Jon, how's this for "bad enough"... "In May 2001, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and later elected Pope Benedict XVI on the death of his predecessor, sent a letter[9] to all Catholic Bishops declaring that the Church's investigations into claims of child sex abuse were subject to the pontifical secret and were not to be reported to law enforcement until investigations were completed, on pain of excommunication."
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Road Trip just doesn't buy into the extreme rhetoric. Deal with it.
