Originally Posted By jonvn "They (RT, vbdad, others) can discuss it just fine and have done a commendable of job of stating their views." No. I've been called names, told I was going to hell (probably not seriously) and so on. This is not commendable. "What you and X seek here is total capitulation to your viewpoint" And my viewpoint is what, exactly? That the hiearchy of the church basially encouraged child molesters? And that by continuing to be a part of an organization such as this that has had this as a systemic problem throughout the world, this supports that behavior? Well, it does. Sorry. "Just as they're entitled to believe their faith is bigger than any leader of their church" Explain to me their faith, please. I suggested an alternative, which is almost identical to what they believe now, except no pope. Well, that's the big difference. Except as was shown by X, the pope himself has been involved in covering up these issues. SO, again, supporting people who have fostered an environment where child molestation is acceptable. "they're entitled to believe their faith" Faith in WHAT? Not once has anyone bothered to explain what they have faith in that they A) can not get elsewhere, and B) has not been utterly compromised by child molestation or its ensuing coverup. "If you haven't had that experience, or think it's all full of hot air, then nobody here can help you" Not only have I not had that experience, I doubt those that have. Not that they are being dishonest, but people interpret things rather badly at times. For instance, we used to think the earth was flat, because it looked that way. Was it a sincere belief? Yes, was it right? No. Or ghosts. People have been shown to be able to be convinced that an area has ghosts in it. They are told a story, their imaginations carry it further, and a place becomes haunted. It's all nonsense. "You and X are incapable of comprehending their point of view" What I am incapable of understanding is how anyone can be involved with people who are child molesters and their supporters. Other people who are members of the RC church seem to be able to understand the severity of this problem and have left. It's not an impossible thing to do, and these others were people of faith too, I assume. "Your insistence on tying this to rape and condoning it" Only because that is precisely what is being discussed. Of course I'm going to insist on that. I don't think that is what is causing frustrated responses. Frankly, what I see causing the frustrated responses are people who can not put into words any rationale for their "faith" given the rapes and coverups. There has not even been an attempt. I suppose I shouldn't have expected any sort of reason given the subject matter, which is based wholly on unreason and superstition, but what can you do. It just is kind of scary when such ideas can be more important than the idea of real life little children being horrible hurt, their lives basically ruined and their families damaged. For what? For faith. In what? No explanation. It's baloney. These "commendable" responses have been long on anger and short on explanation. They keep making comments like "We're not child molesters" when no one said they were, jumping to conclusions, and responding to arguments not made. There simply is no defense to this position, and so they have put none up. You can get nearly the exact same teachings at another denomination, without the benefit of the pope who has himself been involved in this stuff. So, what their faith is in, I have no idea. I can understand a faith in Jesus, if you want to believe fairy stories, but not in this. This is real life, real crime, and real horror. And I've not seen one shred of reason as to why. Like I said, if one of these people's children got raped? Maybe then. Maybe that'd finally be enough for them. My guess is that because it happened to someone else, it's someone else's problem. And as long as it is not their problem, they can go along and justify their support of whatever horrible things their church does to its people. Simple as that.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder As I said, I didn't expect you see it their way because you're unable to do so.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Explain to me their faith, please. I suggested an alternative, which is almost identical to what they believe now, except no pope. Well, that's the big difference. Except as was shown by X, the pope himself has been involved in covering up these issues< there are far more differences than just the pope issue, and I have alreadylisted them..but for whatever reason you choose to ignore. as for the ma,e calling you have done the same, but in a backhanded ( maybe you think clever ) manner - I am not amused.There are NOT swap and shop alternatives to ones faith, and even though you may not believe, you know that so why continue on with the nyah nyah level baiting. It is beneath your usual arguments - but yet you continue. I do believe there is a lot to what SPP says, somehow you believe the horrible things SOME priets have done somehow justifies your lack of any belief. If that makes you somehow feel better, fine, but trying to ridicule others , who no longer respect any points you raise in this issue because of the crapola you seem bent on connecting is getting very old.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 that's name calling -- hard to type when you're pissed...but I somehow feel I'm talking to my teenager about cleaning their room in this thread..
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <So, what their faith is in, I have no idea. I can understand a faith in Jesus, if you want to believe fairy stories, but not in this< had to add the fairy tale bit -- juvenille
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And as long as it is not their problem, they can go along and justify their support of whatever horrible things their church does to its people. Simple as that.< the only simple thing about this is the continual repeating of the same bullcrap mantra about support....
Originally Posted By vbdad55 smarter people than myself it appears have left this thread before me....I need to take the same cue before this lowers even further into the same repetitious nonsense -- we've got the gist of the argument ( or whatever it is ) - we will all make sure anytime we donate anything to the church we mark it explicitely for abuser use only -- what a load.....
Originally Posted By Mr X >>had to add the fairy tale bit -- juvenille<< I agree, stories about men magically turning water into wine and walking on water and parting oceans are rather juvenille...but still fun stories. I enjoy stories about superman and jedi knights too. Why all the water motifs, anyway? Anyone else ever notice this. Maybe Jesus was related to aquaman somehow...in addition to his super carpentry powers.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>somehow you believe the horrible things SOME priets have done somehow justifies your lack of any belief<< The coverup that runs all the way up to the supreme leader of one of the worlds largest religions sure does say something, I'd say. If anything, considering the utter immorality of this pope (I'm as shocked as anyone to find out this true, only today!), I would say that staying away from him and his group is a much safer ticket to heaven, wherever you chose to worship or if you just want to pray from home or whatever!
Originally Posted By Mr X Post 38, huh? "They (RT, vbdad, others) can discuss it just fine and have done a commendable of job of stating their views." Absolutely. F you and "you're going to hell" and a whole lot of similar stuff. Yes, you pretty much did say all you needed to, it's obvious you have nothing worthwhile to contribute.
Originally Posted By Mr X So, to sum up post 138 as I see it (I'll just speak for myself here, although it seems Jon and I have been lumped together as a team)... I've been accused in that post of having no faith. (how would you know?) I've been told I can't possibly comprehend the opposing point of view here. (I comprehend it fine, I just don't agree with it) I've been told that I think everyone else is an idiot. (some, yes. not everyone) I've been told that I'm incapable of seeing any grey areas (and when it comes to protecting rapists, yeah I'll even give you that much). All because I suggested that an organization that will protect itself and its "divine" image, and cover up for criminal associates at the expense of molested children, doesn't deserve our financial support. Got it. Thanks.
Originally Posted By Mr X Not only cover up, by the way, but go so far as to facilitate their ability to continue commiting rape (not even INTERNAL justice there, which is tacit support if not outright encouragement).
Originally Posted By jonvn So I get no answers, of course. " have alreadylisted them.." YOu stated you were against abortion. That was it. So, again, nothing. Meanwhile, children have been molested, and the people running the show there have worked hard to cover it up. That's the bottom line and not a single word of explanation about how people can associate with this sort of thing. It really is amazing.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<So, to sum up post 138 as I see it (I'll just speak for myself here, although it seems Jon and I have been lumped together as a team)... Got it. Thanks.>> Uh. Mr X. Sorry. But about #138... Ironically, you forgot to address one thing... Because you and jonvn have each stood your ground here (with an admirable lack of lashing out at any other posters inappropriately) in what is clearly a minority opinion, the two of you were dismissively characterized by RT as being engaged in a "circle jerk." Yet in #138 SPP said that ALL posters on this thread (with a special nod to RT) EXCEPT you and jonvn have been attempting to engage in constructive discussion. The refusal by so many posters to actually respond to the substance presented here by Mr X is perhaps not surprising to me. Their willingness to vilify him and jonvn for their posts, however, IS truly amazing to me.
Originally Posted By Mr X It certainly is fascinating to me too... I've had lots of insults hurled at me here, some that almost border on "you are a bad person", and with such vitrol...I mentioned to a friend that it was as though I'd walked into their house and kicked their puppy in the face. I don't take it personally though, there is a lot of collective insanity out there these days.
Originally Posted By Mr X I appreciate your posts by the way, Inspector. Just as I appreciated the calm, reasonable post by ecdc as well. Just helps to have a few people point out the obvious (from the outside looking in, as it were). It's interesting that you mentioned how Jon and I are clearly "the minority opinion" here. Obviously that's true. However, I do know some LP posters who share similar viewpoints. I'm betting that they won't touch this topic with a 10 foot pole though because 1) it's such a hot button issue and 2) it's obvious that anyone who dares take that side of the debate will be crucified (and ain't THAT ironic?).
Originally Posted By Mr X It also intrigues me that Jon has been damned to hell, and I have been essentially told I have no soul...and all this by christians. Isn't that the most UNchristian stuff anyone can say? Wow..."you're either with us or against us" indeed. I'm wondering if some other, reasonable discussion might actually take place here now that the lunatics have scurried away in a huff.
