Originally Posted By wahooskipper Why would any of us who have attempted to engage in a meaningful conversation (without labeling you guys by the way...at least in my case) want to continually speak to such intolerable people? You have, to one degree or another, labeled me juvenile, complicit in a cover up, unreasonalbe, etc. You have denigrated the core of my faith in your jokes about Jesus Christ. And I'm unreasonable for not wanting to continue the discussion? I've taken the high ground but I don't have patience for your intolerance any longer.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Yes, you pretty much did say all you needed to, it's obvious you have nothing worthwhile to contribute." Again, see 138. "The refusal by so many posters to actually respond to the substance presented here by Mr X is perhaps not surprising to me. Their willingness to vilify him and jonvn for their posts, however, IS truly amazing to me." You too? See 138. Where do I call anyone names? I also don't endorse it or the use of the f-bombs, do I? However, I do address the frustrations of RT, or did that get missed? Again, absolutely, jonvn and X are incapable of comprehending where RT and others are coming from if they refuse to grasp the concept of faith being larger than anything else in this dynamic, including what has transpired with the priests. They can say they do all they want, but if all they keep repeating is "there's nothing worthwhile", then right back at them. They want capitulation, not debate. Someone who has repeatedly ripped the entire concept of religion as they have isn't even remotely interested in debate on this topic, which goes hand in hand with the faith concept. It appears as if someone trying to explain an unabiding faith to an adamant non-believer is the mirror image of a black guy trying to explain to a KKK guy what it's like or a gay guy to a biased straight. Or, like trying to explain to beau that not everyone can get a job and raise themselves out of poverty and buy a house and get health insurance, just like that. And here's a prime example: "I'm wondering if some other, reasonable discussion might actually take place here now that the lunatics have scurried away in a huff." Such a warm invite. No thanks.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ">>had to add the fairy tale bit -- juvenille<< I agree, stories about men magically turning water into wine and walking on water and parting oceans are rather juvenille...but still fun stories. I enjoy stories about superman and jedi knights too. Why all the water motifs, anyway? Anyone else ever notice this. Maybe Jesus was related to aquaman somehow...in addition to his super carpentry powers." more maturity....really pathetic
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <So I get no answers, of course. " have alreadylisted them.." YOu stated you were against abortion. That was it. So, again, nothing. Meanwhile, children have been molested, and the people running the show there have worked hard to cover it up. That's the bottom line and not a single word of explanation about how people can associate with this sort of thing. It really is amazing.< I listed 4 reasons before the post on abortion ( in one of the two threads) - but I am not doing your homework for you -- but you don't want to hear any of them --
Originally Posted By Mr X >>You have denigrated the core of my faith in your jokes about Jesus Christ.<< This, too, is interesting. Is it not okay to joke about Jesus? Please point me to THAT particular rule... In fact, I think Jesus is one of the coolest prophets to ever walk the earth...maybe even my favorite. Other favorites include Buddah, the Dalai Lama (current incarnaton), Eckhart Tolle, Martin Luthor King Jr., and Stevie Wonder. In other words, awsome people who speak the truth (to me, at least). No, I don't really buy that he's god. But if I were buddist, that'd be okay, right? Or if I were a Jew? But since you really don't KNOW what I am, you label me a soulless troublemaker. All because I am disgusted with the catholic church and those that continue to fund it. Well, so be it. You don't know me and I don't know you...but you might want to sit back and rethink just how much you are assuming about a guy just because he throws out a viewpoint that doesn't agree with your own.
Originally Posted By Mr X "more maturity....really pathetic" WHY is it pathetic? Because I dare to make light of this? Because I don't revere the same crap you revere? What do you think of sacred cows? What's your opinion of 77 naked virgins awaiting you if you commit murder upon your death? Do you think that multiple births, and re-births, and more re-births sounds very logical, and totally within reason? I am officially taking this to the next level here. I'm tired of all you sanctimonious people telling be that I'm somehow "bad" because I dare to challange the religion that fostered child rape. So bring it on. I think my past statements are truly valid (the catholic church is messed up, and it's not right to support or finance them at this point...ESPECIALLY considering that the pope was in on it at the expense of raped KIDS) and I resent the fact that you people turned that into "he must be a non-believing idiot".
Originally Posted By jonvn "any of us who have attempted to engage in a meaningful conversation" I haven't seen any meangingful conversation at all. I see comments such as "You two are not capable of comprehending," which is not meaningful, it is insulting. The only "bad" thing I said about Jesus at all is that it is a fairy story, which is what I believe. That is not juvenile. That is my belief, because it makes the most sense. And, again, the "concept of faith." Faith has been mentioned a few times, and in response, I asked "Faith in WHAT?" No response. So as I said in the other thread, there just isn't a response. People didn't have their own children raped, so it's not that big a deal, it seems. Sure, people are upset and pissed, but it didn't actually happen to them so...stuff happens, right? That's what it looks like to me. "I listed 4 reasons before the post on abortion" I don't recall reading them. They got lost in the name calling and offensive hysteria thrown at me over this. A calm, reasoned explanation would have gone a whole lot farther than what I did receive, which really does back up the things that are wrong with religion. Since no one was able to actually respond to what I was saying, I went and thought about it myself. What would someone who was calmly trying to explain this to me say, instaed of calling me a juvenile circle jerker. I've thought of a few things that would make some semblance of sense, but none of that has been said. Given that wasn't even tried, it seems to me that the people who are shreiking here about this stuff probably don't even know why they are doing it. Going back to the topic at hand, there are MANY people leaving the church. I know a good deal of ex-catholics. Was it that they had no faith? I don't think so. And yet they are gone, and are also able to articulate why. That people here can not articulate why they stay is very interesting to me. And it raises the question, at what point would it be too much and you'd go? That wasn't answered either. That means, NOTHING the church does would be too much? No matter what the organization does, it will be gone along with? That's not good.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>Given that wasn't even tried, it seems to me that the people who are shreiking here about this stuff probably don't even know why they are doing it.<<< Absolutely. >>That people here can not articulate why they stay is very interesting to me.<< I FIRMLY believe that the fear of damnation, and the brainwashing, and the insistance of the pope that they MUST be catholic "OR ELSE!!" plays a large role in this. "And it raises the question, at what point would it be too much and you'd go? That wasn't answered either." Interesting that NOONE responded to both the "killer priest" hypothetical that was offered. I would really like to hear this from the believers. IF this whole situation had involved KILLING rather than rape, and the highest officials on up to the pope had kept it quiet and moved the killers to another location... Would THAT be okay?
Originally Posted By Mr X "would that be okay?" bad choice of words. Obviously, noone in the general catholic chuch finds the rapes, OR the coverups, "okay". I guess the better question would be, IF they let those priests keep killing, and moved them around and covered up the facts, and actually HINDERED the authorities in their duties (YES, the current pope did that...read back!)... If all that were true, would you STILL stick with that particular church?
Originally Posted By jonvn OK, what it comes down to is that they can't answer, probably feel horrible at all of this, and don't know what to do, because they are sincere in their beliefs in the Catholic church being the right one for it was the one Jesus told Peter to build upon. So if you FIRMLY believe that, and perhaps other Roman Catholic concepts no one has actually bothered to try explaining, you do what? You don't go anywhere else, you stick it out and hope it goes away. The anger shown here is kind of a misplaced emotion, because what is happening is we are asking for a logical reason for something that has no basis in logic, because if reason was used, the obvious choice would be to switch to something else, but that is not what is involved here, so we get the fury. Not only that, but there is a very serious betrayal going on here. And that is upsetting. These topics open that wound up, and since they can't really leave the church because of their own beliefs that it's the right thing to belong to, and because they can't yell at people like Father Tony, who did nothing wrong, then who can they express their anger at? It gets tossed at people who question it, they get ultra defensive, dig in their heels, and clam up. It's human nature. I simply wish one of these guys here, who usually are reasonable, could have just said what I did instead of the empty "it's a matter of faith" argument. Because then a dialogue could have started, but that's not how it went.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Please don't confuse my no longer responding to your posts as anything other than me finding more valuable things to do with my time. But, if you all would like to beat this dead thread for another hundred posts or so...more power to you. I can't understand your point of view and you can't understand mine. Fine then.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I am officially taking this to the next level here. I'm tired of all you sanctimonious people telling be that I'm somehow "bad" because I dare to challange the religion that fostered child rape. So bring it on." Big, frickin' deal.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I can't understand something that has not been explained." As I said, you're incapable.
Originally Posted By jonvn Puerile insults aside, actually, no, I'm not incapable. I am perfectly capable of understanding a reasonable explanation, but there I have not been provided one, other than "it's a matter of faith." That really doesn't begin to respond to anything I have said. But it is that sort of thing that really indicates there is no valid explanation. For a lawyer, you really don't argue very well sometimes.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Puerile insults aside, actually, no, I'm not incapable. I am perfectly capable of understanding a reasonable explanation, but there I have not been provided one, other than "it's a matter of faith." That really doesn't begin to respond to anything I have said. But it is that sort of thing that really indicates there is no valid explanation. For a lawyer, you really don't argue very well sometimes." You're built too short, everything is going over your head. Look, don't be ashamed if you don't get it. "A matter of faith" more than covers it, and your express statement that it "doesn't respond" is evidence enough you're not able to grasp what others are trying to tell you. Apparently when people speak of faith it's a foreign language to you. It's okay, really. You've called religion fairy tales, superstitions, voodoo, and Lord knows what else, yet you complain that no one wants to engage you. That's pretty funny.
Originally Posted By jonvn "A matter of faith" more than covers "it," Well, no, it doesn't. Faith in what? That's what I asked. No response. People in religions the world over have "faith." You don't have to be Catholic to have faith, so that word really doesn't have a lot of meaning in this context, because it's a blanket word that covers everyone. "You've called religion fairy tales, superstitions, voodoo, and Lord knows what else, yet you complain that no one wants to engage you. That's pretty funny." This was their chance to explain why it isn't. Instead, I got called a circle jerker. SO, I guess all my thoughts are confirmed again. No one seems able to even begin to explain any of this.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 faith is in a doctrine - a set of beliefs- not in those who may or may not carry it out -- this is really not difficult --
