Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<You flatly refuse to accept any of that evidence because you have staked out you viewpoint and no amount of evidence can sway your opinion.>> Evidence of what? Creationism? The creation story is all about having faith, not evidence. We are asked to simply believe it because the Bible told us so. Evidence isn’t required. I don’t think that it is wrong for people to have faith in the Biblical version of the world. But it surely is not based on “evidenceâ€. The folly here is that you are treating the two theories as equal, competing theories. They are not. In fact, they aren’t even comparable as the conditions to which “prove†the other true are polar opposites. Faith vs. empiricism. It’s impossible to weigh the two. So where do we go from here?
Originally Posted By Disneyman55 To sleep, since these particular threads always turn into a "people who believe in creationism are ignorant, stupid and fat headed" rant.
Originally Posted By planodisney A giraffes long neck depends upon a series of integrated adaptations that could not have happened seperately, so they had to have been present from the beginning of the species. Likewise, a giraffes circulatory system includes a coordinated system of blood pressure controls. Pressure sensors along the neck arteries monitor the blood pressure and activate contraction of the artery walls. The complex circulatory system of the giraffe must appear at the same time as its long neck, or the animal couldnt survive. Basically, a giraffes neck has little troughs that open and close when he gets a drink of water. One opens, waters enters that trough and the next one opens and so on. If this wasnt there, the giraffes neck would basically explode when it lifted its head with a drink of water. This is all controlled by the complex circulatory system, which meeans that this all had to appear in the animal simultaniously, which would be impossible using the evolutionary model. Also, flagellum have a propeller like appendage to move, between 30 and 40 protein parts are needed. Removal of any of these parts causes the system to cease functioning. Darwins theory of intermediate and incremental evolutionary steps cant explain this, because it had to have occured in 1 BIG step. There are many more examples like these. My source for this information was the book OF Pandas and People. Any intelligent, open minded person could not read this book, and have serious questions about evolution.
Originally Posted By planodisney Also, read the article Birds Beatles and Life by Barry Setterfield. You can google it and read the entire article. These are just a few scientists and authors who have begun to question evolution. Many were former hardcore evolutionists.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "Also, read the article Birds Beatles and Life by Barry Setterfield." John, Paul, George and Ringo changed more than just the music world, apparently.
Originally Posted By AgentLaRue "To sleep, since these particular threads always turn into a "people who believe in creationism are ignorant, stupid and fat headed" rant." An oft-repeated strawman. Most people have no problem with people believing there was a creator. The problem is when one equates that with foreclosing scientific explanations for the way the universe functions, such as evoluation.
Originally Posted By AgentLaRue "evoluation" is definitely science, by the way. Just not one that has been discovered yet.
Originally Posted By AgentLaRue On second thought, I retract the prior post. "Evoluation" was created, by me.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 "...if creationism is true we'd all be the product of massive inbreeding..." Given the human race's tendencies toward violence, cruelty, self-destruction and plain old stupidity - the above statement only seems to reinforce the idea of creationaism as being true!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< A giraffes long neck depends upon a series of integrated adaptations that could not have happened seperately, so they had to have been present from the beginning of the species. Likewise, a giraffes circulatory system includes a coordinated system of blood pressure controls. Pressure sensors along the neck arteries monitor the blood pressure and activate contraction of the artery walls. >>> Thank you Mr. Plano Science for clearing this up for us non-believers. Can you provide a URL for the website that you cut-and-pasted this from?
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<Any intelligent, open minded person could not read this book, and have serious questions about evolution.>> Questioning is always good. No, marco-evolutionary theorists don't have every answer to every possible circumstance, and likely never will.However, your post wasn't evidence that Biblical creationism is THE correct explaination. Even if evolutionary theory was completely debunked in a decade or two, you still couldn't prove intelligent design.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>A giraffes long neck depends upon a series of integrated adaptations that could not have happened seperately, so they had to have been present from the beginning of the species.<< Even if that's so (and I'm not sure it is), the "beginning of the species" as WE know it and recognize it today still may have evolved. Maybe there were short-necked giraffes long ago. As climate changed how vegetation grew, perhaps the short-necked giraffes with only "slightly" longer necks were able to reach ample amounts of limbs to eat. It makes sense to me that over time, these survivors with similar features (slightly longer necks) would mate and thrive, while short-necked giraffes with only slightly shorter necks that others in the species might not fare as well. Weakened, they might starve or be taken down by predators. And this pattern repeated over centuries would result in the giraffes of the modern age. Now, please understand that I'm not saying that anyone is an idiot for choosing to believe that giraffes were placed here exactly as they are today by God. That very well may be how it happened, no one knows for sure. I believe that people are born with some traits they can do little about and a whole lotta stuff they can make choices about, and most people of faith recognize a spiritual awakening as a kind of evolution within each of us from a base, selfish human being into a loving, thinking human that can make life better for his fellow man. Which is all a long-winded way of saying that evolution and faith don't cancel each other out.
Originally Posted By itsme >>A giraffes long neck depends upon a series of integrated adaptations that could not have happened separately, so they had to have been present from the beginning of the species. ---- so are you saying that the giraffe in its present way, Has looked like that since it was first found? It shares or evolved from nothing with any animal before it and there has never been anything found scientifically to support that. Since were on animals, care to go into sea life and how some fish of the same genus have differant markings, dietiary needs or behavior depending on which ocean they live in.
Originally Posted By paulyahoo Do you Americans really believe all different species were dumped to Earth instantaneously (oops, sorry, in 7 days?) Then why dinosaurs and horsetails at one time ruled the Earth? Or all their fossils are science fiction?
Originally Posted By itsme >> Earth instantaneously (oops, sorry, in 7 days?) ------ Wasnt Led Zepplin created on the 7th, So it was really 6.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Do you Americans really believe all different species were dumped to Earth instantaneously (oops, sorry, in 7 days?) >>> Apparently, a quite significant group of those that no doubt are "proud to be American" really do believe that. Look at the pride shown in the poll that is the subject of this thread. <<< Or all their fossils are science fiction? >>> Now that I've lived in the Bible Belt* for a few years, I think I can answer this: the fossil record is the work of Satan, as is any part of science that serves to disprove whatever the current-day interpretation of the Bible is on a scientific matter. They were put there as a trap to ensnare those whose faith is not strong enough. I'm only being partly facetious in saying this. There are no doubt some among the creationists that believe that, and there are probably other explanations offered by others. * For those non-US residents that may not be familiar with the term, "bible belt" refers to a portion of the US roughly including "the south" (which really means the southeast US) and the "midwest" (which really means the center of the country) where fundamentalist Christianity is particularly popular. Although we are a majority Christian nation, there are dramatic variations in specific beliefs among the population, and the distribution of these beliefs varies greatly geographically.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<This is all controlled by the complex circulatory system, which meeans that this all had to appear in the animal simultaniously, which would be impossible using the evolutionary model.>> It may be complex, but it isn't unique. It sounds pretty darned similar to the process that gives men erections. Is that impossible under the evolutionary model also?
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 ">>A giraffes long neck depends upon a series of integrated adaptations that could not have happened seperately, so they had to have been present from the beginning of the species.<< Even if that's so (and I'm not sure it is), the "beginning of the species" as WE know it and recognize it today still may have evolved. Maybe there were short-necked giraffes long ago. As climate changed how vegetation grew, perhaps the short-necked giraffes with only "slightly" longer necks were able to reach ample amounts of limbs to eat. It makes sense to me that over time, these survivors with similar features (slightly longer necks) would mate and thrive, while short-necked giraffes with only slightly shorter necks that others in the species might not fare as well. Weakened, they might starve or be taken down by predators. And this pattern repeated over centuries would result in the giraffes of the modern age. Now, please understand that I'm not saying that anyone is an idiot for choosing to believe that giraffes were placed here exactly as they are today by God. That very well may be how it happened, no one knows for sure. I believe that people are born with some traits they can do little about and a whole lotta stuff they can make choices about, and most people of faith recognize a spiritual awakening as a kind of evolution within each of us from a base, selfish human being into a loving, thinking human that can make life better for his fellow man. Which is all a long-winded way of saying that evolution and faith don't cancel each other out." Kar2oonman, I was going to say something like this as well. Since deer are giraffe's closest relatives, it's possible that there were short necked giraffes, and they split from deer and grew longer and longer necks, while the other side branched off into the many species of deer. Nature always seems to find ways around obstacles, and to survive, I'm sure the current giraffe traits evolved/adapted over a long period of time. Look, nobody knows how the earth and everything on it got here, and God may have been responsible, but we should not throw out science (even though it's incomplete at the time) out the window and believe solely in what the Bible tells us...yet provides no evidence. We should be using the Bible to teach us how to live and honor God and our fellow man, but not for science.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "Now that I've lived in the Bible Belt* for a few years, I think I can answer this: the fossil record is the work of Satan, as is any part of science that serves to disprove whatever the current-day interpretation of the Bible is on a scientific matter. They were put there as a trap to ensnare those whose faith is not strong enough. I'm only being partly facetious in saying this. There are no doubt some among the creationists that believe that, and there are probably other explanations offered by others." Yeah, funny thing is that you really aren't that far off! I grew up fundimental Baptist, and that was indeed the way some things about secular ideas and science were explained away. I never understood that as a kid, it was the equivalent of "because I said so".
Originally Posted By TomSawyer <<This is all controlled by the complex circulatory system, which meeans that this all had to appear in the animal simultaniously, which would be impossible using the evolutionary model.>> >It may be complex, but it isn't unique. It sounds pretty darned similar to the process that gives men erections. < I find that I usually don't get them from considering the circulatory system of animals. But hey, who am I to judge?
