Originally Posted By DAR <<oh this is SO True. Although i had NO idea the DiningPlan was THIS Evil.>> And are you required to partake in this EEEVIL dinning plan? <<Not only has it ruined capacity and service. But there are LESS items on the menu and the items that are there are for retards who want a Fridays or Bennigans in every park.>> First of all I find the use of retard very offensive, I have worked with many mentally handicapped people mostly kids. There's nothing wrong with Friday's or Bennigans. <<A burger does NOT belong on France. Its only there to placate a stupid redneck, xenophobe guests.>> OMG!!!! You don't have to order the burger, you can chose something else.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Last month I was on vacation in Quebec City Canada for a while. Althought there were restaurants what I'm sure had burgers on their menus, burgers were not a "stable" found in all resturants. Not that I have a major objection to burgers being on the menu at Chefs. I just think ordering a burger at Chefs appropriate for the setting.
Originally Posted By DlandDug There is nothing wrong with Fridays or Bennigans. There is nothing wrong with burgers. There is nothing wrong with rednecks and lumpen tourists. BUT... there is something unsettling about catering to all of the above in a way that completely betrays the intent of World Showcase. Each pavilion is intended to give an accurate depiction of the host country. Architecture, merchandise, cast members, and food should all reinforce the theme. Italy: Venetian palaces, commedia performers, and real fettucini from the restaurant that invented it. Morocco: winding streets, bazaars, and an authentic multi-course meal with dancers. England: Tudor structures, English woolens and porcelain, and a pub with inedible food accompanied by strong drinks. France: the Eiffel Tower, fine wine, and... hamburgers? Please.
Originally Posted By DlandDug (P.S. I know that it was a bid to appeal to tourists, but I was appalled at the character meet 'n greets that have been imposed on World Showcase. Pinocchio in Italy? Fine. Beauty and the Beast in France? That's a stretch. Aladdin in Morocco??? I don't think so.)
Originally Posted By DlandDug >><<oh this is SO True. Although i had NO idea the DiningPlan was THIS Evil.>> And are you required to partake in this EEEVIL dinning plan?<< No, but the comment reflects the fact the the Dining Plan is directly impacting the experience of others, regardless of whether they partake or not. But then "Show" is often sacrificed on the altar of profit in today's Disney World.
Originally Posted By SuperDry I can see at least two reasons this might have been done, both related to the Dining Plan: a) In-park eating is very overcrowded these days. Many people were reluctant to eat in France, because of the perceived "strangeness" of the food. So, they added an item that almost anyone could eat to make the restaurant more comfortable to the masses. b) Because of the price points on the old menu, the food was reasonably good and on the high side as far as cost of ingredients. Because of all the people on the Dining Plan, costs were skyrocketing. So, they put a $23 Le Hamburger on the menu, knowing that many people will choose it because of its familiarity. It might properly be priced at $15 under normal circumstances, but then people on the Meal Plan might be *less* likely to order it because they wouldn't be getting their money's worth. My bet is that the reality is closer to b) than it is to a).
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <It might properly be priced at $15 under normal circumstances, but then people on the Meal Plan might be *less* likely to order it because they wouldn't be getting their money's worth. < Now this I could believe
Originally Posted By danyoung >Each pavilion is intended to give an accurate depiction of the host country.< I think this went out the window early on with regards to food. Mexico, China and even Norway started much more authentic than they are now. Customer demand made them lay off the spices and the exotic and unique foods in favor of enchiladas and sweet & sour chicken. And now Mexico serves that awful tomato paste of a sauce with honest to goodness Tostitos. Very authentic!
Originally Posted By DLFAN1979 Actuallt i noticed that Mexico is MORE authenncitc now that i it was. Nine Dragons is sitll 50/50. Half generic Chinese half REAL chinese. Norway jumped into the sharks mouth w/ the host country pulled out of sponsering the pavillion. Which led Disney to shove the Princesses in Akershus, make the menu less authentic, take out the guided tours, and the tourist office.
Originally Posted By leemac <<No, but the comment reflects the fact the the Dining Plan is directly impacting the experience of others, regardless of whether they partake or not. But then "Show" is often sacrificed on the altar of profit in today's Disney World.>> I don't particularly want to get involved in this debate but it should be noted that the majority of World Showcase dining is operated by WDW partners and not the Walt Disney World Co. itself. Therefore it is entirely up to the partners (who by and large are synomous with the country's dining that they offer at Epcot) as to what they offer. WDW Co. has little or no input as to what is offered at locations like San Angel, Chefs de France and the Rose and Crown. They are also not bound to take part in the DDP.
Originally Posted By DlandDug As a long time devotee of the Akershus, I cannot express my extreme disappointment after my last visit there.
Originally Posted By disneydad109 we have always eaten at Akershus each trip but since they changed the way the place is run we have not been back. Some changes are not needed.new is not always better.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I don't particularly want to get involved in this debate>> Oh, it's good to see you back Leemac ... if I have time to post on LP.com between business and the Emmys (and hearing all sorts of interesting WDC gossip), I'd love to hear your take on the dumbing down of WDW dining ... heck, perhaps you can even help to explain to me the price points at the Blue Bayou in DL (where I had dinner tonight) ... no entree under $24.99 (even chicken ... even vegan?) Is that twit Mary still in charge of food and beverage at DLR? Yeah ... I'd love to know your thoughts. <<but it should be noted that the majority of World Showcase dining is operated by WDW partners and not the Walt Disney World Co. itself.>> WDW has tremendous clout regardless of who operates the establishments. Do you think Nine Dragons could suddenly offer an $8.99 lunch buffet without Legal on the phone? C'mon. What if Rose and Crown decided it wanted to go back to having soup or salad included with dinner? You think Norm Noble and the foods folks would be hunky dory with that? What if San Angel Inn decided Mondays are slow so all margaritas will be 2-for-1? You damn well know what ... And I can't wait to visit next month and see what quality of steaks are offered at Le Cellier ... I wonder if the mushroom filet will be replaced by a Newfoundland Tuna Melt or Vancouver Mac'N'Cheese? <<Therefore it is entirely up to the partners (who by and large are synomous with the country's dining that they offer at Epcot) as to what they offer. WDW Co. has little or no input as to what is offered at locations like San Angel, Chefs de France and the Rose and Crown. They are also not bound to take part in the DDP. >> Can you really say that without LoL? Chefs de France has ALWAYS had high-end beef dishes on its menu. ALWAYS. Filets, veal, wine-braised beef tips etc ... now, flank steak and a $23 burger (which you can bet your butt has filler in it) and it has nothing to do with the DDP?! HAH!?!? As to what came first the bumpkin guests or the WalMarted product, I'll say it really doesn't matter. Not if Disney wants to be a premium 'brand.'
Originally Posted By danyoung >I wonder if the mushroom filet will be replaced by a Newfoundland Tuna Melt...< Hey, don't be knocking Newfoundland - I'm a proud goofy Newfie!!!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< it should be noted that the majority of World Showcase dining is operated by WDW partners and not the Walt Disney World Co. itself. Therefore it is entirely up to the partners (who by and large are synomous with the country's dining that they offer at Epcot) as to what they offer. WDW Co. has little or no input as to what is offered at locations like San Angel, Chefs de France and the Rose and Crown. They are also not bound to take part in the DDP. >>> I don't think this changes the discussion much. It's clear that the Dining Plan has had a major affect on WDW dining operations, regardless of who is owning and managing particular outlets. With such a high percentage of guests on the Dining Plan, how practical would it be for one of the "independent" countries in Epcot to not honor it? And consider how the independent restaurants might be compensated by Disney for Dining Plan guests: if compensation is based on the menu price (whether or not it's the full price or just a portion), the venues have every incentive to monkey with the menus to inflate the prices. And if it's a fixed price per meal, then they have the incentive to steer people to options whose cost of preparation is less. Either way, it's my opinion that removing the fine beef options and putting a $23 hambuger on the menu at Chefs is a direct result of the Dining Plan. I don't know that I have an opinion the dining plan as far as good or bad, but it's apparent that it's having quite an effect on dining options at the park above and beyond just changing the way things are paid for. Many of these changes are especially detrimental to people not on the plan. It's certainly an interesting promotion.
Originally Posted By idleBrain <<Many of these changes are especially detrimental to people not on the plan. It's certainly an interesting promotion.>> Count me as one of them. I'm returning to WDW next week for a short trip, and have opted NOT to include the DDP, for numerous reasons. And after learning about what DDP has done to menu offerings, I'm glad I chose not to include it. I used to love eating at WDW, particularly Epcot. Coral Reef used to be my favorite, until last September. What was once a great seafood restaurant is now an overpriced seafood restaurant that pales in comparison to The Fish Market chain on the west coast. And I'm guessing that the DDP has made this venue even more expensive and less flavorful in the past year. My favorite Orlando restaurant has recently become Tchoup Chop at Uni/Royal Pacific. Emeril's restaurant consistently offers what WDW used to provide. It's proof enough to me that WDW ain't what it used to be, food-wise. 8^(
Originally Posted By leemac <<Oh, it's good to see you back Leemac ... if I have time to post on LP.com between business and the Emmys (and hearing all sorts of interesting WDC gossip), I'd love to hear your take on the dumbing down of WDW dining ... heck, perhaps you can even help to explain to me the price points at the Blue Bayou in DL (where I had dinner tonight) ... no entree under $24.99 (even chicken ... even vegan?) Is that twit Mary still in charge of food and beverage at DLR? Yeah ... I'd love to know your thoughts. >> Never went away really (although lots of traveling still). Just haven't had anything to contribute. DLR has always been a no-brainer to me. Only one proper full-service facility for ages at DL in Blue Bayou. Just made no sense and then the expansion opens with a zillion new table service establishments. I'm glad DL has expanded its offerings although you will still find me across the esplanade or at the Grand as the quick service stuff at DCA (especially at the Wharf) is still much better than DL in my opinion. Plus Vineyard Room is the best in-park dining experience (except for Coral Reef and maybe Walt's at DLP) at any Disney park. Chuck in Whitewater, Storyteller's and Napa and I never need to eat anywhere else. Still haven't tried any of the DtD options beyond La Brea for weekend breakfast and Naples once. My point on WDW (particularly Epcot) was that people shouldn't be so quick to blame WDW Co. Ultimately they are landlords and revenue stream partcipants (WDW Co. tends to opt for the revenue share option in lieu of rental premiums) so if the restaurant is busy that is good for the participant and great for WDW Co. It is no coincidence that the vast majority of Epcot partners are still operating. World Showcase is a lucrative captive market and WDW Co. are shrewd at protecting that (especially by reducing the quick service options in Future World). I don't really have an opinion about the DDP. It isn't much use for me as I'm a wannabe wine buff and tend to drink the stuff with every decent meal. So that tends to limit me to the restaurants at WDW that offer a decent wine list. I can probably count them on two hands and you don't find the type of clientele that are attracted to the savings of the DDP. The issue will be whether this is all resolved when the freebie dining ends. If it persists then WDW Co. will have to go back to the drawing board on this one otherwise a la carte guests (and their high premiums) will be driving out by the value crowd. That doesn't make good business sense.
Originally Posted By danyoung >...otherwise a la carte guests (and their high premiums) will be driving out by the value crowd. That doesn't make good business sense.< Truer words were never spoken. Nicely put.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Never went away really (although lots of traveling still). Just haven't had anything to contribute. >> That's never stopped you before ;-) <<DLR has always been a no-brainer to me. Only one proper full-service facility for ages at DL in Blue Bayou. Just made no sense and then the expansion opens with a zillion new table service establishments.>> Well, DL DID have plenty of table-serve options if you go back 10-15 years ago. Carnation was much larger and open three meals a day. Town Square Cafe, which became a shop. Tahitian Terrace, which became Aladdin's, which became a storytelling venue. ... and Plaza Pavilion was also foods, not a pin, passport and DVC booth location. <<I'm glad DL has expanded its offerings although you will still find me across the esplanade or at the Grand as the quick service stuff at DCA (especially at the Wharf) is still much better than DL in my opinion.>> That may be true, but even DCA has had food dumbed down. I loved the Soap Opera Bistro, great food, fun interaction with servers, hell, good synergy with ABC Daytime ... what became of that ... oh, yeah, it's a toddler show locale. Avalon Cove was great when Wolfgang Puck ran the place. What happened? Oh yeah, he pulled out and the place became a dumbed down character dining location. ... Hmmm... what about quick serve? Hollywood and Dine was terrific with three different counters ...what became of it? Oh yeah, it's been walled off and given to convention services. What about those tasty noodle bowls at Lucky Fortune Cookery on the Wharf? Oh yeah, that place they just shuttered and left it. <<Plus Vineyard Room is the best in-park dining experience (except for Coral Reef and maybe Walt's at DLP) at any Disney park.>> Walt's at DLP is great ... unless you wind up with food poisoning. <<Chuck in Whitewater, Storyteller's and Napa and I never need to eat anywhere else. Still haven't tried any of the DtD options beyond La Brea for weekend breakfast and Naples once.>> They are all quite good, except for Rainforest Cafe. Catal is one of the best DLR locations. And Tortilla Joe's is quite good too. <<My point on WDW (particularly Epcot) was that people shouldn't be so quick to blame WDW Co. Ultimately they are landlords and revenue stream partcipants (WDW Co. tends to opt for the revenue share option in lieu of rental premiums) so if the restaurant is busy that is good for the participant and great for WDW Co. It is no coincidence that the vast majority of Epcot partners are still operating. World Showcase is a lucrative captive market and WDW Co. are shrewd at protecting that (especially by reducing the quick service options in Future World).>> Ultimately, though, the power and decision-making resides with Disney and you know that (even sidestepping the example I threw out to illustrate that the participants really have no power). <<I don't really have an opinion about the DDP. It isn't much use for me as I'm a wannabe wine buff and tend to drink the stuff with every decent meal. So that tends to limit me to the restaurants at WDW that offer a decent wine list. I can probably count them on two hands and you don't find the type of clientele that are attracted to the savings of the DDP.>> True ... to an extent. The California Grill has an amazing wine list and I have seen nights when it looks like over half the place is on the plan! <<The issue will be whether this is all resolved when the freebie dining ends. If it persists then WDW Co. will have to go back to the drawing board on this one otherwise a la carte guests (and their high premiums) will be driving out by the value crowd. That doesn't make good business sense.>> Disney has never had a problem over the past decade in cutting quality and losing the higher end guests. WDW lost me as an onsite resort guest for 2-3 years when they let their rooms fall into disrepair. They renovated and added EMH's at night and that got be back ... at least for now I have no problem paying for quality. Even paying a premium. But I do have a problem with gouging guests and cutting quality AFTER they have snookered guests into buying packages with the free food included. One would expect to be able to get a high quality beef dish at Chefs de France and flank steak and a cheeseburger do NOT count. It's bait-and-switch as far as I'm concerned. There's a certain standard of food and menu offerings that the better restaurants are known for ... and if that drops between 8/13 and 9/30 ... well, maybe Disney needs another public black eye?
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Actuallt i noticed that Mexico is MORE authenncitc now that i it was.<< Its hit and miss. My biggest disappointment were the Tacos al Pastor. They are nothing like the real ones you get in Mexico. Other dishes were OK.
