Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Since you're in the minority on this one, you can have the last word. You still have not provided any concrete, workable plan that has adjusted for the gross miscalculations made before we invaded. Nor has Bush. THAT'S why Iraq is a mess.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder If you haven't already checked it out, this Garry Trudeau site is incredibly interesting. The good, bad and indifferent from Afghanistan and Iraq. <a href="http://gocomics.typepad.com/the_sandbox/" target="_blank">http://gocomics.typepad.com/th e_sandbox/</a>
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <You still have not provided any concrete, workable plan that has adjusted for the gross miscalculations made before we invaded.> I don't think we made any "gross miscalculations", just decisions based on bad intelligence, and a little too much optimism. Since then, we've switched tactics to adjust to conditions on the ground, but the basic plan remains the same. And Iraq is a "mess" because it was a mess before we occupied it, and sometimes it takes time to clean up messes.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Since then, we've switched tactics to adjust to conditions on the ground, but the basic plan remains the same. << The 'basic plan' isn't working - it never did, and that's why things are deteriorating. The first plan wasn't even a plan - just show up and feel the love. That kind of incompetence should be criminal. >> And Iraq is a "mess" because it was a mess before we occupied it << Not really. It was under the control of a brutal dictator that we had effectively boxed in, with no means or material to wage war. It was not a hotbed of terrorism, and it wasn't related to our concern of responding to 9/11. I know you think otherwise, but you're flat out wrong - as has been explained to you on numerous occasions. This puppy love devotion that you feel for this administration is unwarranted and not grounded in reality. Facts are flying all around you, and all you can think to do is to swat them out of mid-air.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <The 'basic plan' isn't working - it never did, and that's why things are deteriorating. The first plan wasn't even a plan - just show up and feel the love. That kind of incompetence should be criminal.> I disagree with your opinion. <Not really. It was under the control of a brutal dictator that we had effectively boxed in, with no means or material to wage war. It was not a hotbed of terrorism, and it wasn't related to our concern of responding to 9/11.> Saddam was a brutal dictator who supported terrorists and let his country's infrastructure run down rather so he could bribe UN officials and pursue WMD's. <I know you think otherwise, but you're flat out wrong - as has been explained to you on numerous occasions.> Sure, it's been "explained" to me, and those "explanations" have been countered by my presentation of facts which showed those "explanations" to be incorrect. <Facts are flying all around you, and all you can think to do is to swat them out of mid-air.> Opinions that you agree with are not facts.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Opinions that you agree with are not facts. << Thank you. I'll remind you of that next time you post yet another link to 'OpinionJournal'.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh When I do, it's not because I believe the opinion is fact. It will be because I think the opinion is valid, or that the author has included some facts that are relevant to the discussion.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Saddam was a brutal dictator who supported terrorists << Bush himself has said that there is no link between 9/11 and saddam - at least twice. What's more, there was never any solid intelligence that suggested there was a link, and believe me they tried hard to find one. They never did, but that didn't matter, we invaded anyway based on paltry excuses, flimsy evidence and outright lies and distortions. All that aside, when we did invade we did it badly. As we know now, anyone could have invaded iraq and prevailed. There was only token resistance that folded within a week. That didn't stop bush from strutting around the deck of an aircraft carrier, in a borrowed flightsuit, off of san diego, in an appalling and laughable attempt to portray himself as some kind of war hero. That was three and a half years ago. Since then, iraq (and afghanistan) have spiraled into an unwinnable quagmire. There were plenty of warnings along the way, yet "the plan" was to stubbornly continue to 'stay the course' and dodge all manner of accountability for failure after failure. Even today, those that wish to paint a rosy scenario are left pointing to the elections months ago as the only cause for celebration. Well the party's over and their is still no effective government or military force within iraq. Or afghanistan. So after almost four years of worsening conditions, how much time do you think you need? How many more deaths? How many more billions? What makes you think that things are going to improve given the steady track record of decline and worsening conditions and the growing death toll? You seem to trust the bush administration - god only knows why, but you do. I don't and never did. As six years of bush has clocked by, more and more americans have come to the realization that bush and his bunch are not worthy of our trust and support. You haven't given up. But you and your fellow bush supporters are a shrinking breed. As your numbers dwindle you become more irrelevant with every passing day. And your judgement is rightly questioned. Just like bush's.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh I don't know why you quoted something from my post and then wrote a screed that had nothing to do with it. Once again you have responded to a fact - "Saddam was a brutal dictator who supported terrorists" with a bunch of opinion.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "When I do, it's not because I believe the opinion is fact." Au contraire, it's exactly what you do. You believe it's a fact "the plan is working" in Iraq. There's plenty of evidence to show otherwise, yet you do exactly what you accuse others of doing. There simply are no headlines or articles anywhere that say the war in Iraq is going great. Not even on Fox News or its brethren. The war is gone horribly wrong, and that's what we hear every day from a variety of sources. Your blind allegiance to this Adminstration prevents you from saying anything diffeent.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <You believe it's a fact "the plan is working" in Iraq.> No, I don't. I think it's an opinion.
