Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Newt has written a few books about the civil war by the way. You should check them out, all of them, as he is much smarter than any liberal in America.>> What do you base that on? Like most of your claims, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Some day you will understand that your saying so or Rush’s saying so does not make it true. You are irrelevant.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy post 179 is correct about Jefferson. He would not agree with anything the ACLU is pushing today, that is for sure. That is why the ACLU is losing now, people are actually looking at what he was saying in his 1802 letter to the Danbury baptists.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<You didn't even know that Lincoln was considered a tyrant by large segments of the population.>> jon, your such a dork. I know Lincoln was under fire much like Bush is today as he fough the war. Linclon had to deal with anti-war moonbats also. YOU didn't say people thought Lincoln was a tyrant. YOU said he WAS a tyrant. History shows Abe Lincoln was many things. Mainly he was right and history proves him to be a man of historical greatness. Bush will go down the same way when the war against Islam ends someday.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<What do you base that on?>> RT, Newt laid out the plan for America back in the 90's. he is the man who helped the GOP take congress. He is a man with great ideas then and today. Based on the fact that the libs have ZERO ideas except raise taxes, rasie the minimum wage, bath houses for all, and surrender to the terrorists, Newt is a much better American politician than any liberal ever will be except Zell Miller and Lieberman. <<You are irrelevant.>> Libs say this when they are out of things to say and they have had their ass kicked.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <"I do believe he was for church - state separation in government although in his own personal life the whole deist vs. established religion argument is a bit tedious " It is a bit tedious, except for when some folks claim this is a Christian country, and that all the founders were Christian.< I prefer to think that Jefferson thought his way around many topics - also Christianity is a very large umbrella, and I do believe that many of the founders of this country were either Christians...or in many cases, had Christian influence in a lot of their thoughts and ways....all- absolutely not....but many if for no other reason that the way they were brought up...many of the most famous of which were pretty deep thinkers ( or so it seems) so it is not surprising that they questioned more than their parents and grandparents did, if for no other reason that they were here and allowed to question more. I believe some were devout Christians, many I would put in the ranks of questioning Christians , and some were not Christians at all.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <You didn't even know that Lincoln was considered a tyrant by large segments of the population. < for anyone who does not believe this, a trip to the new Lincoln Museum in Springfield Illinois is in order. This is a museum that is of the first order to be sure..it is just excellent, with exhibits and information for everyone and for all ages... Indeed, Lincoln was hated by many in this country...viewed as too lenient on slavery for some, not lenient enough for others and truthfully has little support from the media. Some of the most vicious political cartoons were against Lincoln, and compared to the attacks on Bush now, or Clinton before -- the current ones are tame by comparison. <a href="http://www.alplm.org/museum/museum.html" target="_blank">http://www.alplm.org/museum/mu seum.html</a> if you ever have reason to go near there- this is one place you will not be sorry you stopped
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<RT, Newt laid out the plan for America back in the 90's. he is the man who helped the GOP take congress. He is a man with great ideas then and today.>> Newt had a strategy to gain power and it was very successful. I would never question that. In fact I wish that Democrats would take a look at his play book and see how it should be done. But the fact that Newt was a great tactician in the 90's DOES NOT make him smarter than any liberal.
Originally Posted By jonvn "jon, your such a dork." Another brilliant argument. Misspelled, of course. "YOU didn't say people thought Lincoln was a tyrant." Not really, no. But hey, you don't really understand what you read. Maybe if these things were SAID to you, you'd be able to at least parrot them. That's what you seem able to do. Hear something spoken (by Rush), repeat it here. Oh and as far as Bush and history goes, he's going down as one of the worst Presidents we've had. Time will prove this out, but as far as historians looking at him now go, he's rated at the bottom of the heap.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I do believe that many of the founders of this country were either Christians...or in many cases, had Christian influence in a lot of their thoughts and ways" Well, the problem with that is that there are too many quotes floating around that these guys made in writings to contemporaries that say some pretty nasty things about Christianity. But it only comes up when people try to make claims as to their religious beliefs in order for them to cram their religious ideas down the throats of other citizens of this country.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <History shows Abe Lincoln was many things. Mainly he was right and history proves him to be a man of historical greatness. Bush will go down the same way when the war against Islam ends someday.< wow, I voted for the man twice.( really struggled the second time but John Kerry was no option in my opinion )..but I would be stunned if his name was mentioned in the future with Lincoln's... just my 2 cents.....nowhere near as demonic as the far left paints him, and nowhere near godlike the far right sees him as.... the one thing that will define him for history is an open book today. Not that he decided to take on terror, I think he got the OK for that on 9/11 -- but the IRAQ portion has to prove to be worth more in the long run and future than it appears today. Even as a registered GOP voter, right now it is based on misinformation ( no I do not think it was fabricated and as I have mentioned before one defining document for that to me is the info from Putin that stated they believed there were WMD's there also, no way even to Oliver Stone was he a part of some conspiracy) - but the info has proven wrong none the less.. and the proposed transition to democracy is still a question to be answered. if things were to go well over the next few years...yes his image would rise ( not to Lincoln's status by any stretch , but rise)- however if it goes south or does not happen at all ( or if there really isn't another motive for it - i.e. bases from which to strke Iran if that gets further out of control) - it will haunt him as a miscalculation ( for those who don't want to call it a mistake) -
Originally Posted By jonvn "the current ones are tame by comparison." At the time, people were so angry about the government, that they were willing to shoot people in other states over it. Maybe it will come to that again.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Well, the problem with that is that there are too many quotes floating around that these guys made in writings to contemporaries that say some pretty nasty things about Christianity. < I've read a lot of those quotes also and many were against the 'leaders' of some of the different sects of Christianity more than they were against the religious base itself. And this is certainly not new over the course of 2000 years even within say the Catholic church...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Oh and as far as Bush and history goes, he's going down as one of the worst Presidents we've had. Time will prove this out, but as far as historians looking at him now go, he's rated at the bottom of the heap. < I still think as far as he 'could' sink, he'd still be standing on the shoulders of Carter and LBJ and a few others in that heap.
Originally Posted By jonvn Many could be against the leaders, but they certainly do not extol the virtues of that religion, and many further categorically deny Christianity as a basis of our government or that it has any role in it.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <But it only comes up when people try to make claims as to their religious beliefs in order for them to cram their religious ideas down the throats of other citizens of this country.< I believe along with the leaders of some of the organized religions of the time, it was also this - the force feeding part that many of our famous founders were against -- feeling the relgious portion of a persons life, and how a country should be run should be more intuitive ..and not as structured. I don not believe they would have gotten into some of the battles over symbols today though....however would have stood up against the forcing of ones beliefs over others -- to me there is a difference...but all speculation as they never got to see today's US and where we are at...just my guess
Originally Posted By jonvn Carter was pretty bad. Really, a failure. LBJ really accomplished a good deal, but Vietnam destroyed him. Bush II is going down that same path, because what made these guys bad was the amount of utter failure surrounding them, and how they did such wretched jobs domestically and internationally. Bush falls right in line with them. While we're not talking about the Grant/Harding/Nixon scandal type of bad, this seems to be about as bad as it goes.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I don not believe they would have gotten into some of the battles over symbols today though...." I think most of these symbol battles are stupid. On the other hand, I really don't want the government involved in religion in any way, so they do have a point. It's just really not something that is important.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Many could be against the leaders, but they certainly do not extol the virtues of that religion, and many further categorically deny Christianity as a basis of our government or that it has any role in it, change that 'many' to 'some' and yes I agree....the reasons they deny it may vary though, from what they actually thought, to what at that time was PC to say and do for a country that was being founded on religious freedom so as not to be hypocritical. The influence ( not the word for word basing) is undeniable - as one of the major infleunces in many of our laws as we've been down that path before.
Originally Posted By jonvn Actually, our laws don't really come from the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or anything like that. They come from other sources. There is nothing like our government in the Bible. Nothing about freedoms in the Bible. Nothing about democracy. These ideas come from elsewhere.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It is so hard to predict a president's place in history. I would rate LBJ as one of the greatest presidents America has ever had for his Great Society programs, yet he is doomed because he chose to fight the North Vietnamese.
