Originally Posted By vbdad55 <LBJ really accomplished a good deal, but Vietnam destroyed him< LBJ followed thru on many existing plans, but Vietnam exposed him for the poor leader he was....the job was too much for him ( and I don't say that meanly - it would be too much for most of us) - also remember like Bush Johnson's party controlled congress at the time so some things came easily. does some of this sound familiar? "While the nation became deeply involved in Vietnam, racial tension sharpened at home, culminating in widespread urban race riots between 1965 and 1968. The breakdown of the interracial civil rights movement, together with the imperfections of some of Johnson's Great Society programs.... It was the policy of military escalation in Vietnam, however, that proved to be Johnson's undoing as president. It deflected attention from domestic concerns, resulted in sharp inflation, and prompted rising criticism, especially among young, draft-aged people. Escalation also failed to win the war. The drawn-out struggle made Johnson even more secretive, dogmatic, and hypersensitive to criticism " plus he trusted a man named Mcnamara who was IMHO one of the worst people ever in the US political arena.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I think most of these symbol battles are stupid. On the other hand, I really don't want the government involved in religion in any way, so they do have a point. It's just really not something that is important.< my point exactly - for example to me to spend millions and years to take a cross off of a city flag that most people wouldn't recongize if someone hit them with it, is insane and revisionalist...and in the end means nothing to either side except to further divide them.....that is far different than having a religion dictate how you live your daily life
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Actually, our laws don't really come from the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or anything like that. They come from other sources. < again we've been here-- there are at least 3 -5 commandments that have influence on laws -- are they parts of other religions also sure, and even part of some pagan cultures..yet one cannot deny they have Biblical reference also...
Originally Posted By jonvn Except for the draft, and the fact that Johnson actually tried doing something constructive while in office, it is history repeating itself.
Originally Posted By jonvn "yet one cannot deny they have Biblical reference also..." Well, I can, because the Ten Commandments were influenced by earlier codes of laws, too. They were not the first set of laws. If they were, then yes, I'd agree with you on that. But because they too were developed as something derived from earlier laws, it's not so straightforward.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I would rate LBJ as one of the greatest presidents America has ever had for his Great Society programs< yet many of his great society programs did not work....( andmany that did came from kennedy's New Frontier drafts) medicare/medicaid - yes I will agree with that one and some groundwork for today's EPA which has made steady progress in air and water quality HUD/model cities programs created many housing projects that turned out to be disasterous, and even more divisional in nature, and most have been dismantled today. Food stamps / upward bound programs / community action agencies etc 40 years later haven't dented the poverty issue so even though well intentioned, results would be very poor.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Well, I can, because the Ten Commandments were influenced by earlier codes of laws, too. They were not the first set of laws. If they were, then yes, I'd agree with you on that. But because they too were developed as something derived from earlier laws, it's not so straightforward.< regardless of who was first - they are part of the Bible and part of the doctrine for a large portion of the population, especially at that time. It is like arguing if something was in Greece or Egypt or Rome first -- doesn't matter if it was incorporated into their way of life does it ? I am not saying that anyone sat down with a Bible and write the constitution or our laws, but to deny they were influenced by it is just as wrong.
Originally Posted By jonvn "regardless of who was first" But it is important who is first, because it is who is first who did the actual influence. The Ten Commandments comes from a source, so does ours. Even assuming ours came from the Ten Commandments, they were only a stopping off point based on earlier laws.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 but still an influence...why is it important to make that denial ? It seems like another issue behind it. No one said first ...and since none of us was here, if Chuck the caveman wrote the first set of laws that became adopted by everyone else- is that the SOLE influence ? no. There is no denying the impact of Christianity ( or other major religions) across the globe for thousands of years. Their own 'take' on laws and guidelines etc are at least somewhat unique in the way they are tweaked and the influence caused by the spreading of these words by organized religions had an effect on the world itself. Without religious beliefs much of the world would have remained outside of the understanding of who evers code it was who wrote it first --
Originally Posted By jonvn "but still an influence...why is it important to make that denial" Because it is not really a direct influence. It, and our laws, are both influenced by another thing entirely. Here is an article about it if you want to look at it: <a href="http://atheism.about.com/od/tencommandments/a/americanlaw.htm" target="_blank">http://atheism.about.com/od/te ncommandments/a/americanlaw.htm</a>
Originally Posted By jonvn I don't have atheism as my agenda, but that page does have a good discussion on the subject.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I'll still take an unbiased view over that...would be like me signing in to Michael Moore's site for a recap of the GOP platform...I'll pass.
Originally Posted By jonvn Here is a timetable of legal history: <a href="http://www.duhaime.org/Law_museum/hist.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.duhaime.org/Law_mus eum/hist.aspx</a> It also basically states that the Ten Commandments, and the rest of the laws involved come from the Code of Hammurabi, which is not surprising given the situation of the Hebrews at that time.
Originally Posted By jonvn You will find, however, that most of our laws come down from Greek tradition, that of a man named Solon.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 that's why I brought up the Greeks and the Romans, I actually paid attention in my ancient civilizations courses ( 2 elective courses 30+ years ago ) in college -- Also that's why I stated I know the timeline, but the interpretation and subsequent spreading of this interpretation to much of the world by Christianity ( as well as other religions) is still a factor in how people were raised for thousands of years - and subsequently trickles down to those who founded this nation. I am not trying to give 'copyright' credit to Christianity, just acknowledge that it's teachings did have an influence -- quite different.
