Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder One of my co-workers had Hannity's show on her radio in her office today. When things are slow she likes to listen to his show. She considers high comedy. Anyway, Hannity had on a bunch of pollsters today from both parties. The consensus was if the election were held today, the Republicans would lose their majority in both houses. Hannity's only real comeback was that the election wasn't today and the Republicans still had time to "get their message out." What, it wasn't clear enough already?
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<The idea that Democrats or liberals don't support the war on terror is absurd.>> Oh really? Then why are democrats against everything Bush does to fight the war on terrror? Why do the liberal blogs say terrorism is just a bogus scare tactic? Why does the liberal ACLU try and stop every thing we do that helps us fight the war on terror? Why do liberals want Saddam in power? What ideas do liberal have to win the war on terror? Why do liberals care more about a terrorists rights than our own militray? Don't tell us liberals are serious abouut he war on terrror because that is a lie. Ned Lamont is the latest appeaser liberal who wants to try and talk things out with the radicals who are not interested in talking. He is a loser who is not going to win.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<The consensus was if the election were held today, the Republicans would lose their majority in both houses. Hannity's only real comeback was that the election wasn't today and the Republicans still had time to "get their message out." What, it wasn't clear enough already>> I was driving around today and heard that segment. Of course you are reporting it all wrong, but hey, who cares right? Michael Barone, not Hannity, said the dems would win today in his opinion if the election was today. Then he said the recent terror plots and other things happeneing in the world don't help the democrats and they would not be able to win come November. But that wa his opinion. If the election was today the dems would lose anyway. There is no reason to vote for them unless you want higher taxes and surrender to the Islamic thugs.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Spinning the spinners. Where will it end? My vertigo is coming back.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Iraq is a part of the war on terror. << Why? Because bush and cheney say it is? And you believe whatever you're told? >> Saddam had lots of connections to Al Quaida and other terror groups. << Not even bush or cheney will say that - they know better, you don't. >> He had WMD's. << It's important for you to believe this, looong after it's been thoroughly disproven. It's delusional on your part, and shows that you're alligences lie with the ideology with no regard to the facts. >> The wiretapping that you and your Frisco buddies oppose for some paranoid reason have been bustong up terror plots all over the world. << Have they now. Specifics please. Or is this just taken on "faith". And for the record, it's the "warrantless" wire-taps that are the problem. The circumventing of the constitution that I take exception to. >> Cheney was right. << Cheney said that lieberman's defeat will embolden the terrorists. You agree. But then, you think that the iraq war is the 'war on terror', that saddam was in cahoots with bin laden, that iraq was brimming with WMD, and that bush's warrantless wiretaps busted the british terror plot. In other words, you'll believe any and all manner of ridiculous and unfounded things. Therefore it doesn't matter what you say, because you have no credibility.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Spinning the spinners. Where will it end? My vertigo is coming back< and you thought only Mission:Space was dangerous
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>> Iraq is a part of the war on terror. << Why? Because bush and cheney say it is? And you believe whatever you're told?< extremely lame - no because I can actually think for myself and make decisions - without hatred towards anything any one party does or does not do..try it some time.
Originally Posted By gadzuux What decisions have you made? Did they check with you first? My opposition to the iraq war is based upon the merits (or lack thereof) of the war itself. It was founded on lies, it was an inappropriate and wholly unrelated reaction to 9/11, it was poorly executed, and it's made the entire situation much worse. On the bright side, we removed saddam from power - almost four years ago. But I don't see any equity in the trade-off. It must be easier for war supporters to think that anybody who disagrees with them is just motivated out of hatred for bush. But then they have to look at the cold hard facts, and still (somehow) try and justify their position. Hence, we see unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about WMD, ties between saddam and bin laden, and mysterious terror plots foiled by bush's extra-constitutional actions. Heck, we even see them lining up to support tax cuts for the wealthiest, the decimation of our own social security system, wildly irresponsible fiscal policies with unprecedented deficit spending, open insults to our allies, the selling of our US ports to arab nations, and corruption of our constitution. Time and again, they vote against their own interests. There is no indignity to our nation that conservatives won't cheer on. If that's what you call "thinking for yourself" I wonder if you've ever had an original thought.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <If that's what you call "thinking for yourself" I wonder if you've ever had an original thought.< see you've always got to somehow portray yourself as some superior intellect - and I ain't buying it. I'll line upmy education/ my IQ / my life successes ( and I came from absolute poverty so I am not a silver spoon republican, before you trot that out) - take your pick - yet none of them mean as much as being able to think without nothing but totally influenced opinionated statements. you see the war as founded on lies - because you hate anybody that has a slightly different opinion than yourself - as is evidenced by some of the nasty comments. I find the war was based on less than quality information..and that information which has been cited on this site for years includes intelligence from the US / UK/ and Russia as the leaders of many others. There is no Oliver Stone conspiracy here, but unfortunately during the previous administration the importance of intelligence outside the US was not a top priority...and what was once a formidable organization became a sheel of itself...Bush acted on the best information available. Now do I believe today that he had WMD in the highest forms - it appears not - ( no I do not think they trucked them to Syria or anywhere else - I save that for the real far right wingers - of which if you really did think through my postings you would already know) - has the war been poorly executed, only the far right will tell you no...of course it has. Does that mean we abandon those who put faith in us and run, no. A better strategy, I'm all for it, do you have one ? Do the Dem's have one ? No. Not everyone right of left wing, is a far right wing nut job. I have already stated I will vote for the best candidate and platform out there in 2008 - and I am open, but it's supporters like you that make me as wary of the Dems as Rush makes me of the far right. I am willing to gamble that I have more international life experiences by far than you have...as well as experiencing life when there wasn't enough food in the house, or money for school clothes to being fairly successful...through a lot of education and working 3 jobs while gong to school I was able to put myself in a position to travel internationally for work and negotiate contracts and the like with different cultures..all the while listening to what they say about a lot of things, including America. Many people in many places look to the US as a benchmark - not all look positively, but their opinions start with what we do and how we act. So for people to say that the election results in Connecticut have no meaning in relation to the war on terror, you couldn't be more wrong. Is that one result going to result in any far reaching changes - no, but to think no one is disucussing it and viewing it as not being anti war ( and for many this also is anti terror fight ) - is having ones head stuck in the LA Times. You have totally bought in to the destruction of social security crapola-- the downfall of social security it simple mathematics my friend... and without assistance it's weakening, if not dissolution has nothing to do with the GOP or the dems, so when it comes to original thought, do some homework first. Open insults to our allies ? Who on this earth do you really believe to be our allies if we really had a time of crisis other than the UK ( major country wise ) ? Wake up, others are trading partners and there are business links, but come to your aid type of allies... those days are gone. And they were long gone before this adminsitration took over. Have some of the stances put more distance between us, maybe and then again maybe only made the lack of support more clear and brought it to the forefront. so as for an original thought-- here's one - get over the rhetoric and the right wing bashing and maybe you'll find there is plenty of common ground betweeen most people in this country. A debate over whether or not some forms of wire tapping should be allowed, should not turn into a Bush is a this and that, and all Republicans are false religious followers, and the GOP is evil, and all the other broad brush bull..no more than I agree that some want to call everyone left of Rush Limbaugh a 'lib, commie terrorist loving so and so' -- as we also know that to be just as false. The people of this country are not goingto get back their goverment, one that will care about the economy, and US jobs and careers for our kids, and medicare and pensions.. as well as security for the populace as long as there are so many for which every decision is all or nothing....a look at some terrorist wiretapping in itself does not make this George Orwells 1984 -- out of control it would be a problem - but no one can discuss it here unless you take sides -- all for or all against -- and this is just wrong....Arnold Schwartenegger is not Hitlers ( or Satans' ) child -- but for him any good he does is completely ignored and he gets ripped as a son of stormtrooper who will of course follow his roots -- this is nonsense. he is no more either all good or all bad than the next guy..judge him on what he does today and yeterday ...not on a cartoon character.... I left W/E once before just as election time was around because every single thread deteriorates by the 5 th post into name calling and the inevitable lineup - far left and far right...it is a place for discussions, and of course people have opinions and sometimes it could and should get heated...but it does just by mentioning a name...no thought process is allowed to play itself out...immediately anything that comes from Bush is met with the inevitable hatred, and then the comparisons to Clinton start and all original thought as you call it is lost. I've decided maybe I should just read for a while as what is happening here is a microcosm of what depresses me about the political situation in the US right now. Those of us who want to find someone, anyone who actually cares about what is important to this country are having a tough time doing so because the same extreme stances here also exist in both parties... try and find a presidentail candidate willing to talk openly and honestly about the economy and jobs and the future of American industry ( or what is left of it) - and you come up emnpty other than those willing to blame the other side..the easy cop out, but playing to the Jerry Springer audience that has been building. I sincerely hope that somehow a platform for the moderate voting makeup of this country.. for the true middle class - ( or what's left of that) - that does exist in every state - red or blue - comes forward -- GOP / Dem or Ind...i could care less if they can address and implement. An honest speaking, no catering to the far left or the far right, let's get back to uniting American candidate...but my hope fades as I realize,maybe the true middle doesn;t exist in numbers any more..maybe one has to take sides - all or nothing--I hope I am wrong
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Rant over - do what you will with the thoughts -- hear me and realize where I am coming from, or bucketize me if you like, I almost could care less any more.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I agree we can tone down the rhetoric. Part of my vitriol is that 'other' posters get my blood to boiling, and then I come along and respond to whatever the most recent post is. I might have lashed out a bit heavy. You're right about that, and I do apologize. Sometimes I wish I could retract a post after I've submitted it. >> I'll line upmy education/ my IQ / my life successes << This isn't a competition, and I'm not wanting to "best" anybody - I want to do battle with a mindset that is often unjustified by facts at hand. >> find the war was based on less than quality information. << You say tomato, I say lies. A lot of people shy away from that word, but there's enough evidence and first hand accounts available now that indicate that the build-up to the iraq war was a slick promotional campaign bolstered by cherry-picked information. To me, that's a lie - especially when it's about committing the world's most powerful military to invasion of another country. >> There is no Oliver Stone conspiracy here << I honestly believe there is. And I haven't seen anything in the makeup of this administration that would indicate otherwise. >> Bush acted on the best information available. << The administration took extraordinary steps to control what information was (and was not) available. The obvious reason for this is exactly what the downing street memo said - to "fix the intelligence" to support the already made determination to go to war. This fact alone is telling about the moral fiber of the people in charge. >> A better strategy, I'm all for it << The bush administration isn't. They are unyielding in their "stay the course" message. One possible reason for this is that the war is actually an enormous success - for it's true intent - which is to funnel hundreds of billions of dollars toward hand-picked recipients. Some people 'pish-tosh' this idea, and think that billion dollar jackpots just find their way by dumb luck. Other people see the hand of corruption involved in this war profiteering. >> Do the Dem's have one ? << There are lots of plans, many these days seem to be centered on partition. The bush administration won't even hear of it - they'd rather "stay the course". Why so stubborn? Pride? Arrogance? Greed? Who's best interests are they serving - certainly not the american people. We stand to gain nothing out of this mess. >> the downfall of social security it simple mathematics << Yep. And bush's numbers never added up. The more he pitched it, the more the public turned away. Failed policy. Good thing too, it was BAD policy that would have made the system unreliable and instable, but would have been a bonanza for wall street. The only reason I brought it up was to support my contention that many bush supporters will vote against their own best interest. >> Wake up, others are trading partners and there are business links, but come to your aid type of allies... those days are gone. << That may be true, but then all the more reason to not insult them. >> A debate over whether or not some forms of wire tapping should be allowed << They're "allowed", just get a warrant. That seems like it's too much to ask, and an unreasonable expectation. Why? >> The people of this country are not going to get back their goverment ... as long as there are so many for which every decision is all or nothing << The situations we're being presented with under bush are not some insignificant or benign issues - they're life and death itself. They go to the core of what being an american means, and what our shared values truly are. They've attempted to co-opt that dialog and allow christian activists to define 'moral family values' and then legislate around this false set of beliefs. When met with any pushback, they yell "christian nation" with absolutely no sense of irony. So, it's not just some academic polemic we're siftying over here, it IS "all or nothing". >> Those of us who want to find someone ... are having a tough time doing so because the same extreme stances here also exist in both parties << You're right - we're polarized right now. And I think I understand why - twelve years of republican domination of our federal government. During this time we have been subjected to every variety of wedge issue to divide us further. Republican leadership thinks it's the only way they can win. And so far, they're right. They can't stand on the merits of their own platform, so they resort to cynical manipulations of the public to further their own short-sighted agenda - an agenda that puts the interests of the wealthiest and most powerful first. You won't ever hear any credible source make the same claim about the democrats - it's the exclusive domain of the GOP. To do this, they have to dupe large sections of the american public, and cajole them into voting against their own self interests. And they succeed. When I say things about many republicans being dumb, it's not just mean-spirited name calling - I honestly believe it. There's just no other rationale that I can fathom for people to take such an active role in their own diminishment of their rights and freedoms. >> maybe the true middle doesn't exist in numbers any more ... maybe one has to take sides - all or nothing - I hope I am wrong. << I hope you're right. I have just enough faith in the american public that if they stop and look at the facts, they'll make the right decision. But yes, you have to choose. Most people are decent enough to know right from wrong, and an impartial examination of the facts will lead them to make the right decision.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>> find the war was based on less than quality information. << You say tomato, I say lies. A lot of people shy away from that word, but there's enough evidence and first hand accounts available now that indicate that the build-up to the iraq war was a slick promotional campaign bolstered by cherry-picked information. To me, that's a lie - especially when it's about committing the world's most powerful military to invasion of another country. < the main reason I disagree -- no one can claim that the intelligence received from Russia and Putin himself indicating WMD's could have been contrived..even the most cynical who would claim the Uk was in bed with Bush on it, cannot claim Russia would have been...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>> Those of us who want to find someone ... are having a tough time doing so because the same extreme stances here also exist in both parties << You're right - we're polarized right now. And I think I understand why - twelve years of republican domination of our federal government< this polarization did not start with the W admin - it started under Clinton...and I am not a Clinton basher.( at least not Bill) But it absolutely started then and has continued to grow for almost 14 years now -- that is why it is so deep. And it has reached the point where there is NO candidate that is middle ground -- the closest 2 high profile I believe are Lieberman and McCain -- yet neither is going to be what anyone wants in my opinion. Baraak Obama - the new poster child - nope- not impressed in the least.. and I get to see his show daily. Rudy Guilliani - I respect the man for some things and not others- but he is not someone I want to see as President either.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <When I say things about many republicans being dumb, it's not just mean-spirited name calling - I honestly believe it. There's just no other rationale that I can fathom for people to take such an active role in their own diminishment of their rights and freedoms. < yet you realize that many republicans look at the dems exactly the same way . Living near Chicago , the city itself hasn't had a republican since 1929 - and you think it's because the dem has always been the best candidate...nope the sheep that live in the city followed for many years whatever the deomocratic machine told them to do..even though the machine rarely delivered for the average Joe, it was for the privileged friends of the dem rich and powerful - sound familiar. No one party has a lock on getting people to vote one way or another and not looking at the facts - that is why that statement really gets to me...you make it sound like the GOP invented corruption- -- well if they invented it, the Democratic party in the nations 2nd largest city perfected it...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I agree we can tone down the rhetoric. Part of my vitriol is that 'other' posters get my blood to boiling, and then I come along and respond to whatever the most recent post is. I might have lashed out a bit heavy. You're right about that, and I do apologize. Sometimes I wish I could retract a post after I've submitted it. < same apology back to you if I stepped over the line anywhere, and I know you may not believe it but there are points you have I agree with, and some that I am at least willing to understand where you are coming from. We have some we will never agree on, but the broad brush sniping gratuitously thrown in sometimes makes the valid points go away. That was the main point of what I was trying to say...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <an agenda that puts the interests of the wealthiest and most powerful first. You won't ever hear any credible source make the same claim about the democrats - it's the exclusive domain of the GOP. < again, do some history searching on the Democratic party here in Chicago over the past 77 years in power...and then let me know about this. Also let's talk Joseph Kennedy in how far people will go to get what they want and work soley for the rich and powerful.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Gadzuux, what was that plan to win the war on terror again? You libs do a lot of complaining, a lot of ignoring the facts, a lot of conspiracy hype, but never, and I mean NEVER a solution to any problems. That is why people won't vote for you guys when it is important. You might want to look into some of the documents that were discovered after Saddam fell that linked him to Al Quaida, terror plots around the world and his WMD programs. I know you are not going to ever read anything other than the SF Gate and other Bush hating rags, but the truth is out there if you really care to see it. Everything you beleive in is a conspiracy. Think about that.
Originally Posted By jonvn "They can't stand on the merits of their own platform, so they resort to cynical manipulations of the public to further their own short-sighted agenda - an agenda that puts the interests of the wealthiest and most powerful first. You won't ever hear any credible source make the same claim about the democrats - it's the exclusive domain of the GOP." This is precisely and exactly correct. "this polarization did not start with the W admin - it started under Clinton..." By the republicans.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <"this polarization did not start with the W admin - it started under Clinton..." By the republicans. < wrong... <You won't ever hear any credible source make the same claim about the democrats - it's the exclusive domain of the GOP." This is precisely and exactly correct. < get those statues ready to idolize all Dems' any blanket statement like this is nonsense..but you are welcome to believe it..and the Easter bunny and Santa and anything else.. there hasn't been a more corrupt family in the US in the 20th century than the Kennedy's....starting with Joe -- and last I looked they were rich ol Democrats.....
Originally Posted By Beaumandy More corrupt than the Dalys in Chicago vbdad? However you spell the name.
