Originally Posted By jonvn "I said more in my post than that." I didn't bother with it. It started out with junk, so I stopped reading.
Originally Posted By jonvn "What have I said about American history that is incorrect again jon?" I would simply suggest taking a community college class on the subject and learning about it.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy "What have I said about American history that is incorrect again jon?" Are you going to answer this?
Originally Posted By ecdc "Are you going to answer this?" How about your repeated attempts, inspite of overwhelming evidence, to portray Founders like Jefferson as deeply religious. You say Jefferson went to church on Sundays and that's your evidence; you ignore quotes where he skewers Christianity, and the fact that he spent hours rewriting the New Testament to remove the passages referring to Christ's divinity. You haven't responded once to those and other quotes from Jefferson I posted Beau. You ignored them entirely and said Jefferson went to church (which everyone did out of tradition in the 18th century) and that's good enough for you. You don't know what the church services were like, who presided, etc. You're woefully ignorant on the topic. As for Lincoln, habeus corpus, and the Civil War, I've stayed out of that because I haven't studied the Civil War much. I'm reading (in addition to a few other books - I can never seem to focus) both James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom and Shelby Foote's three volume narrative, but won't finish them for a while because of my other school reading. In short, Beau, unlike you, I don't feel the need to spout off on history topics I know little to nothing about. Beau, I want you to name one book you've read on the Civil War. Just one. If you Google or go to Amazon.com and pull a title, I'm going to call you on it. So give us one you've really read. Or, if you've just been listening to Rush again or saw a passing reference to Lincoln suspending habeus corpus in an Ann Coulter diatribe, then fess up.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy ecdc, you are a great example of someone who is learning....a bunch of crap, only to push that crap on others. Here you are here.. <<How about your repeated attempts, inspite of overwhelming evidence, to portray Founders like Jefferson as deeply religious. >> and this.. << You say Jefferson went to church on Sundays and that's your evidence; you ignore quotes where he skewers Christianity, and the fact that he spent hours rewriting the New Testament to remove the passages referring to Christ's divinity.>> Now ecdc, you for reason don't mention that the church Jeffersnon went to every Sunday was in the the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office. Also, why did he authorize the use of the War Office and the Treasury building for church services in Washington, D.C. if he was so against religion as you and other fact challenged libs say? Jefferson was the ACLU's worst nightmare if you look at his history and not try to revise it. Was he the best Christian ever? No. But was he the guy the libs like to pretend he was as they attempt to ban God all over our country... no, not even close.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<As for Lincoln, habeus corpus, and the Civil War, I've stayed out of that because I haven't studied the Civil War much.>> Hopefully you will learn that Lincoln took steps to protect the country during war, steps the left would fight him tooth and nail on today. One of the reasons the left in this country is so ignorant is their refusal to study history and what did and did not work. The ACLU and their lib fans could care less that what they are doing today by undermining the war effort is a proven failure for our country. It's why they need to be mocked and exposed.
Originally Posted By ecdc "Was he the best Christian ever? No." Seeing as how he didn't believe Jesus was DIVINE I'd say he wasn't much of a Christian at all, Beau. Still no response to all of Jefferson's own statements and actions on religion, eh? Just more of the same "Jefferson went to church in the capital". Nice try, though. Hey, still waiting for the title of that book you read on the Civil War. You seem to know oh so much about it, I'm dying to hear your sources.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Seeing as how he didn't believe Jesus was DIVINE I'd say he wasn't much of a Christian at all, Beau. Still no response to all of Jefferson's own statements and actions on religion, eh? Just more of the same "Jefferson went to church in the capital".>> If Jefferson was pushing the ACLU wall of seperation why would he ever allow church to be held in the US capital building? Just answer that. Jefferson during his public service years did all kinds of things the ACLU would have sued him for. If you don't admit this fact then you have a lot of learning yet to do. Jefferson in his later years AFTER he was retired from public life rejected the deity of Christ. But that has nothing to do with what he did when he was president. Maybe this is where you are getting lost. I should have figured so a long time back with you. Also from any number of books you will find thesed items to be facts: He signed legislation that gave land to Indian missionaries, put chaplains on the government payroll, and provided for the punishment of irreverent soldiers. He also sent Congress an Indian treaty that set aside money for a priest's salary and for the construction of a church. Most intriguing is the manner in which Jefferson dated an official document. Instead of "in the year of our Lord," Jefferson used the phrase "in the year of our Lord Christ." Christian historian David Barton has the proof – the original document signed by Jefferson on the "eighteenth day of October in the year of our Lord Christ, 1804." <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28006" target="_blank">http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n ews/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28006</a>
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Hey, still waiting for the title of that book you read on the Civil War. You seem to know oh so much about it, I'm dying to hear your sources.>> I read Newt Gingrich's book about Gettysburg. He is an expert on the civil war. You don't need to be an expert however to know that Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus to handle the anti war crowd in the North who were undermining his war effort. I think he did the right thing since he WON the war and the slaves were freed. But America winning a war is somehting liberals could care less about as we can see by their daily actions.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Newt Gingrich's>> Ah yes... the great history scholar Newt Gingrich. I read a good book on the Civil War written by Mother Goose. We should get together some time and debate.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy RT, you have no idea once again what you are talking about regarding Newt. It must be a liberal thing to strike out against things you have not read or heard. I think YOU would love his Civil War books as they are researched to the max, are thought provoking, and are entertaining. Didn't anyone study the Civil War in high school?
Originally Posted By ecdc Beau, your MO hasn't changed a bit. You pulled this same stunt when you showed you know nothing about George Washington. You Googled Jefferson as Christian and found one article written by an Evangelical on Jefferson who has no historical training or background. His bio reads that he: "is senior minister of the nearly 10,000-member Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., and president of Coral Ridge Ministries, a Christian broadcasting organization." For good measure, D. James Kennedy, author of the one source you could find, is also an ardent anti-Catholic, anti-Mormon, and anti-Freemason. He has been severely criticized by the anti-defamation league. He got his degree in THEOLOGY from an unaccredited institution. As for David Barton, the only other source that you got from Kennedy, he got an honorary degree from Pensacola Christian College. He's another Evangelical without any historical training who's proof-texting the writings of the Founding Fathers, looking for any shred of evidence he can to twist them into something they aren't. Try again, Beau. The problem is you engage in presentism in every one of your posts. (You can go Google that too, find out what it means). You have no sense of context (nor do your sources) and no sense of 18th century culture, worldview, political theory, ideology, etc. Jefferson could go to church and still be pro separation of church and state much the same way he owned slaves and denounced the institution. He had traditions and, IMO, lacked the moral courage to stand up for what he believed in under certain circumstances, but there's no question that he was ardently for separation of church and state. Try reading a biography sometime - maybe the one by Joseph Ellis or Merrill; these are people with real degrees from actual accredited universities; not just honorary theology degrees from some Christian college. I've posted Jefferson's own words repeatedly; you continue to ignore them and can only muster "he wasn't the greatest Christian." Maybe because he barely fits the definition of Christian at all.
Originally Posted By ecdc "I read Newt Gingrich's book about Gettysburg. He is an expert on the civil war." LMAO!!!! Beau, just when I think you can get any funnier! Please tell me you're not talking about Newt Gingrich's NOVEL about the SOUTH winning the battle of Gettysburg. Not only is this a novel Beau, it's an alternate history novel, along the lines of Fatherland. Beau, you make it too easy sometimes! Not only have you not read a history of the war, you've only read a novel that envisions the south winning. Three words: Un. Be. Lievable.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Are you going to answer this?" No, because I've stopped bothering to answer your questions, because you do not understand or comprehend the answers. As I said before, you're basically a waste of time.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy ecdc, instead of trying to demonize everyone who is not a left wing atheist, why not tell me what is wrong in this post I took from Dr. Kennedy. "Now ecdc, you for reason don't mention that the church Jeffersnon went to every Sunday was in the the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office. Also, why did he authorize the use of the War Office and the Treasury building for church services in Washington, D.C. if he was so against religion as you and other fact challenged libs say?" Evreything in that post is 100% a fact, yet you scoff at it. This is what libs like you do when you have nothing. You are going to tell me that Jefferson, a man who invented seperation of church and state supposedly would actually approve of church services in the US Capital building? Are you freaking that stupid? Yet with a mountain of evidence agaisnt you and the ACLU losing in court rooms across the country you say this like a child. <<but there's no question that he was ardently for separation of church and state>> Get help.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 In reading a lot about Jefferson, I do believe he was for church - state separation in government although in his own personal life the whole deist vs. established religion argument is a bit tedious and I do not think there was one answer....except at certain points in time... I believe he was a man constantly in transtion with his own religious beliefs, as were many at that time....
Originally Posted By Beaumandy As far as the civil war goes, I know a lot about it. I know that you are baffled about it so why are you even talking about it. Newt has written a few books about the civil war by the way. You should check them out, all of them, as he is much smarter than any liberal in America.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<"Are you going to answer this?" No, because I've stopped bothering to answer your questions, because you do not understand or comprehend the answers. As I said before, you're basically a waste of time.>> You don't answer a lot of questions jon and then you claim, err, hint, to be smarter than everyone. We all see it.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 but again the separation of church and state in government he was for was not the abolition of religion, religious icons or even it's 'influence' in America, but to not allow any one religion to become dominant and decide the direction of America...or overrule others... wasn't that the basic premise of why many sought out a new world ?
Originally Posted By jonvn "I know a lot about it." You didn't even know that Lincoln was considered a tyrant by large segments of the population. "I do believe he was for church - state separation in government although in his own personal life the whole deist vs. established religion argument is a bit tedious " It is a bit tedious, except for when some folks claim this is a Christian country, and that all the founders were Christian.
