Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "But you guys have to admit, Pelosi is sometimes, at least sometimes, off her rocker. Come on, fess up." She is. I confess.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo An addendum to the Shep video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GD1mrOhmM8&NR=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...mM8&NR=1</a> Anyone else get the feeling Shep is sick of hanging around at Fox? He deserves better. I think I'd have gone insane by now. But then, Shep brings more dignity to Fox than Hannity O'Reilly, and Cavuto combined. What would they do without him?
Originally Posted By gadzuux It looks like one of the reasons some of these people were tortured was not for any "ticking time bomb" fantasy scenario. It was to try to find a Saddam->> Al Qaeda connection in order to justify the invasion of Iraq. Of course, there was no such connection, so we tortured people to find information that didn't even exist. Lovely. << This is where the story is, and it's getting reported but somewhat glossed over. This is absolute highest level of appalling. And this is what the GOP is trying to fob off as "policy differences". Rove was all over this new talking point the other night, and now it's being taken up by anyone who will stand in front of a camera and say it. Which isn't too many people. Notice who's lining up in defense of torture, brutality, and the subjugation of basic human rights and dignity - Cheney, Rove, Boehner, former Bush press secretary Ari Fleischer - and fox news. Pretty much nobody else. And funny how the same people who would believe anything these folks say now are the same people who believed them when they conflated 9/11 and iraq. To this day we have someone right here in our midst who still believes in the saddam/bin laden connection, even though bush himself eventually said it was never true. And for those who say that waterboarding isn't torture, how about when we do it 183 times to the same guy in a single month? Doesn't that sound like torture to you? "Push harder" indeed. These are heinous crimes. Not only against the prisoners, but against international law, against our own laws, against basic humanity, and ultimately against the american people. We as a nation have been reduced and our international reputation has been harmed by these deeds. There are those that will point at the Obama administration and try and blame THEM because they released the documents. That's just looking for scapegoats - most of this information has existed in the public domain for years - and they've been denying it all along, so why should they stop now? And what did we get by stooping so low? The usual suspects will tell you that it produced 'actionable intelligence' with a few anecdotal stories of attacks that were foiled in NY and LA. Prove it. Go ahead big talkers, release some documents that substantiate these fanciful and unsupported claims. We'll see. So far, you've got nuthin' except the HOPE that there's actually something tangible behind these self-serving tales. In the meantime, those that are revulsed by these actions by our own government have a vetted and authorized report from the united states senate that says - for the record and all of history - that this brutality was undertaken to justify Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq. History will also show that it didn't work, and the iraq war was ultimately unjustified. This makes the remaining ragtag group of people who still consider themselves republicans crrrazy! While most people with a lick of sense can see these sordid details for themselves and know their right from wrong, those that remain loyal to the brand have already suffered so many indignities over so many years of supporting their party they've effective become numb to it. So while they USED to say it wasn't true, now they have to say that it was absolutely necessary. And in doing so they drop one more notch down the scale of humanity.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***This is where the story is, and it's getting reported but somewhat glossed over. This is absolute highest level of appalling.*** If true, I totally agree. And it makes me wonder why the heck President Obama is protecting them so vigorously. I had assumed it was because he knew more than we did and felt that perhaps it WAS an extreme situation, not worth going after so long as it was at least stopped...but now I just don't get it.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <If true, I totally agree.> Big if. Most likely, this will turn out to be one of those stories where anonymous sources have only told half the story, or exaggerated some aspects, discounted others, or are just blowing smoke.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So while they USED to say it wasn't true, now they have to say that it was absolutely necessary.<< Exactly.
Originally Posted By gadzuux He's worried that it will be portrayed as a partisan witch hunt. What else can they say? But the facts on the table so far support a thorough investigation. Remember, Bush was initially opposed to the 9/11 commission. Now it's considered a model of how to conduct a non-partisan investigation, and he embraced it so much that you'd think he wrote it. So these things have a funny way of turning out. It is possible to have a fair and impartial non-partisan investigation. It's also required by the US constitution - the document that federal politicians took an oath to preserve, protect and defend. Arguing against an investigation into the practices that lead to abu ghraib, guantanamo bay, and the torturing of our detainees is un-american. The only motivation for not investigating would be to want suppress the facts to avoid culpability. And who would want to do that? The culpable. And those that support them. In other words, placing the political interests of a corrupt administration and their party above the interests of the nation and our constitution. Seems like an easy call to me.
Originally Posted By dshyates "Most likely, this will turn out to be one of those stories where anonymous sources have only told half the story, or exaggerated some aspects, discounted others, or are just blowing smoke." Once again you amaze me. This is official documentation of what happened. But you just keep on keepin' on buddy. Holy flerkin' schnit.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <This is official documentation of what happened.> You're reading way too much into this. It's not going to turn out the way partisan leftists think it will.
Originally Posted By velo >>"Most likely, this will turn out to be one of those stories where anonymous sources have only told half the story, or exaggerated some aspects, discounted others, or are just blowing smoke."<< you mean like the "reasons" we needed to wage war on Iraq?
Originally Posted By gadzuux Aren't you glad that you don't have to try and defend the actions of the republican party? It's almost comical watching people defend torturing and brutalizing prisoners - as if it's a good idea. What they're really doing is hoping to avoid the political fallout that comes from accountability for their own actions. How noble.
Originally Posted By DVC_Pongo >>>Shep brings more dignity to Fox than Hannity O'Reilly, and Cavuto combined.<<< Mmmmm...I'll give you Hannity and Cavuto, but you can't plug Bill in there. He is clearly biased, but he doesn't let GOP'ers slide much either.
Originally Posted By Mr X Wow...and here I thought he was the biggest blowhard biased jerk of them all. (granted, he treats EVERYONE like manure so I can understand why you think he's more "fair")
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> ... and here I thought [o'reilly] was the biggest blowhard biased jerk of them all. << Who's to say you're not right? Still, being up against Hannity and Cavuto makes it a tough call. But's it's like trying to pick the prettiest girl in the convent - in the end, what difference does it make?
