Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom In responce to post #99: It appears that KT & Beau just got their Neo-con "Talking Points" kit in the mail today. In Social Work we have a saying, "when your a hammer everything looks like a nail". So I suppose that when your a "Liberal" Democrat then anyone who isn't a "Liberal" Democrat is someone worthy of disdain. I'm a Libertarian. I'm ready anytime you want to talk about the unsustainable Social Security System, turning our Social Security System into an International Relief Fund, not protecting our nations borders, giving 20 million "illegal trespassers" US citizenship through biased unequitable means, the poliferation of "mob rule", enabling our countries enemys in a time of war.
Originally Posted By Shooba >>Is it me, or does it seem that people who call themselves conservative and take on certain right wing viewpoints have a harder time making rational arguments? I've been chatting with a few of these people on here, and there doesn't seem to be a one of them that can understand what's presented to them.<< I don't think jonvn is trying to suggest that all Conservatives are stupid or inferior or worthy of disdain, etc. It does seem, however, that there is a rather vocal minority of conservatives here who simply do not grasp what is being said, and insist on arguing against straw men and imaginined arguments, and make themselves look like fools in the process. For example, on the wiretapping issue, a typical comment from the left seems to be "The government should not be allowed to wiretap without warrants, as it violates civil liberties and allows for the possibility that a politician could abuse this power. Since warrants can be gotten after the fact, and are almost never rejected, there is no threat to the program and a relatively minor system of checks & balances remains in place". The conservative response? "So you're saying that the government should not be allowed to monitor terrorist phone calls? You support terrorism!" Of course, the response isn't even remotely accurate, and it just comes off as the insane ramblings of a lunatic. Now, if someone had a legitimate reason why warrantless wiretapping is necesscary, there might be an interesting debate. It is this group of conservatives that are completely incapable of responding to what people say, and insist on making up things to argue against, that make jonvn (and others) question the intelligence of conservatives. There are certainly intelligent conservatives here, but they are drowned out by the idiots.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<The conservative response? "So you're saying that the government should not be allowed to monitor terrorist phone calls? You support terrorism!">> Shooba, your showing your ignorance again. Thanks for proving my point about libs who talk a big game but are totally in the dark. The NSA program is set up in a way that you CAN'T get warrants if you wnat to use the program. They are monitoring call patterns, words, phrases, locations of the calls, etc. You can't get warrants for that. Why is that so hard for you people on the left to understand. You don't need warrants to do this. They are not monitoring the calls to arrest anyone in particular. But yes, the left CELEBRATED the decision of that Jimmy CArter judge who tried to shoot the entire NSA program down. A decision that IF left to stand would result in terror attacks here at home. Americans would die if this liberal judge got her way. The fact that up to 6 other courts had said the program was very legal was no factor to this Einstein lib judge. Anybody can see this. But the left, who tell us how smart they are, do EXACTLY what the terrorists need us to do so they can hit us. This is just one reason liberism is the politics of the stupid. TO have these very people tell us how smart they are is beyond hillarious. What was the "liberal intellectual" plan to defeat radical Islamic terror again? Crickets......
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Of course, the response isn't even remotely accurate, and it just comes off as the insane ramblings of a lunatic. Now, if someone had a legitimate reason why warrantless wiretapping is necesscary, there might be an interesting debate.>> Hey Shooba. You can't even get the fact that listening to a terrorists phone call will save your life. Nope, to you and your " intellectual " peers from the left, you either get a warrant for millions of phone calls or you don't hear those calls that are plotting the next massive hit on America. See, this is why liberals are laughed at now and they lose. This is why people who think like you Shooba need to run the newspaper stand at the YMCA and NOT be in charge of keeping Americans safe. I never thought even libs would be so stupid as to think we shouldn't listen to EVERY terrorist phone call possible... and that is EXACTLY what you are saying when you bring up getting warrants for millions of phone calls.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <They are monitoring call patterns, words, phrases, locations of the calls, etc. You can't get warrants for that. Why is that so hard for you people on the left to understand. You don't need warrants to do this. They are not monitoring the calls to arrest anyone in particular.> They're doing both, Beau. That's what YOU can't seem to understand.
Originally Posted By Shooba >>I never thought even libs would be so stupid as to think we shouldn't listen to EVERY terrorist phone call possible... and that is EXACTLY what you are saying<< And my point is proven. Of course, I haven't even offered up an opinion of my own (I just paraphrased what I felt others had said) as I don't pretend to have any sort of knowledge on the subject. Like I said before, the left is just fine with listening to every terrorist call, just get a warrant (after the fact no less!). And, like I said before, the king of the morons from the right insists this is akin to saying that terrorist calls should not be monitored. Are conservatives in general stupid? No, of course not. Is this conservative as dumb as a bag of rocks? Absolutely.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom In responce to post # 103: I haven't contributed to the thread regarding Federal wiretapping because I am against wiretapping. I'm not going to budge on that issue. If the Federal government wants to wiretap they can get a court order. I would also suggest that the Federal government "secure" our borders if they truely are intrested in saving American lives against terrorist.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<And, like I said before, the king of the morons from the right insists this is akin to saying that terrorist calls should not be monitored.>> Shooba, the moron is you. The judge who shot down the NSA program was saying that we can't listen to the calling patterns of terrorists. She said the program could not go on as it was set up. The end result is that we DON'T hear all their phone calls. End of story. You and Dabob have yet to explain HOW we are supposed to get warrants for millions of phone calls where we are listening to words, patterns, and phrases from suspected terror suspects. If you insist on warrants you destroy the effectivness of the program. But who cares about that right? As long as you lefties can say Bush is breking some law you could care less that you are playing into the terrorists hands. You guys are soooo smart and intellectual compared to us silly, stupid republicans. You guys lose for a reason. You should go figure it out.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <You and Dabob have yet to explain HOW we are supposed to get warrants for millions of phone calls where we are listening to words, patterns, and phrases from suspected terror suspects.> I've already addressed this. You are conflating two separate issues into one. And, ironically, claiming to understand all about it.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Nope Dabob, not good enough. You say get warrants but don't give any proof we arew NOT getting warrants for certain phone calls and you don't address that the NSA program is a call pattern monitoring system where warrants are worthless. Can yot tell me a few examples of people who were spyed on without a warrant that were harmed Dabob? Just one example will do for now where someone went to court because they causgh the governemnt spying on their phone calls.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Since this thread is about how smart everyone is except conservatives, can I get a few NEW ideas the liberals have come up with in the last 5 years that will help the country. After all, they are the intellecuals we are told.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Nope Dabob, not good enough. You say get warrants but don't give any proof we arew NOT getting warrants for certain phone calls and you don't address that the NSA program is a call pattern monitoring system where warrants are worthless.> You don't get it, obviously. First of all, the NSA program is for patterns AND listening in to actual conversations. You seem to semi-understand this, at least sometimes. After all, if a pattern is established, and you have probable cause to think someone's a terrorist, wouldn't you want to listen to the actual conversations? You've in fact said we should. Well, that's when you (should) go to a court, present the probable cause, and get the damn warrant. One can't prove a negative, such as proof we're not getting warrants to listen in. But since the Bushies have claimed the right to do so, that pretty much tells you it's happening, otherwise they'd just say they didn't do that. <Can yot tell me a few examples of people who were spyed on without a warrant that were harmed Dabob? Just one example will do for now where someone went to court because they causgh the governemnt spying on their phone calls. > Okay, either you REALLY don't get this, or you're being intentionally dense. If person A is being spied on without his knowledge, how is he supposed to go to court and say he's being spied on? By definition, it's without his knowledge. The main point is, without some sort of court oversight, this is too much power for a president - any president - to have. You may believe that Bush would never yield to temptation and overstep his bounds. But let's just say that we get president Hillary next. If she has the power to wiretap anyone without a warrant, what would prevent her from bugging, say, a pro-life group she didn't like? Or the RNC? And without court oversight, how would anyone outside her circle even know she had done so? It's too much power to give a president - any president. If the target is legit, get a warrant.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << After all, if a pattern is established, and you have probable cause to think someone's a terrorist, wouldn't you want to listen to the actual conversations? You've in fact said we should. Well, that's when you (should) go to a court, present the probable cause, and get the damn warrant.>> I need proof they are NOT getting warrants once they actually target someone as a serious threat. I would be surprised if they were not once they have a suspect. There is no reason to not get warrants. <<Okay, either you REALLY don't get this, or you're being intentionally dense. If person A is being spied on without his knowledge, how is he supposed to go to court and say he's being spied on? By definition, it's without his knowledge.>> Just admit you have no proof anyone is being spyed on and you are going on conspiracy theories all while being perfectly happy to let the terrorists talk without us listening.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd The number one thing that all demnocrats agree on is the impeachment of george bush, will help our standing in the world, and at home. To see justice done against this war creating terrorist is the only solution at this point in time. Otherwise, as things start to not go his way again, he will let us be attacked, just like 9/11, just to get the known traitor, george bush, to give him his way. There are two reasons americans haven't been attacked by terrorists. 1. All terrorist and terrorist activity is censored out of the news. All. No reports, no terrorism. 2. All nations, including america have been stung by bush, and don't trust him. Many terrorist threats have been stopped by Not following bush, and his terrorist cabal's advice.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd My pal, beaumandy, wrote this - <<<I loce hwo the libs and the libs who deny they are libs like to tell us how smart they are.>>> I'm sorry, i'll try not to rub it in anymore. <<<These same people push so much garbage and conspiracies that they have lost all credibility with the American public.>>> As bush's popular numbers plummet in the polls, which he says he can't read anymore, because it depresses him too much, we see people who have been hurt, and will never forget the truth about bush again. Bush's plummetting poll numbers, which are based only on registered republicans anymore, and he still comes up with just 32 percent and down, down, down. He better hurry and figure out a way to contact me, so i give him a touch of believability again. <<<Ask them the why they lose elections?>>> They were rigged by republicans, who blocked the untied nations from having observers in ohio districts. <<<Ask them what their plan is to fight riadical Islam.>>> Radical islam disappears when the threat is gone. Get rid of bush. People go back to being just islamic. Get rid of the known, radical terrorist, traitor, george bush, and other fake christian radicals, who think they have a right to kick over beehives in a crowd, all over the world. That's what creates radicals. Start using the nsa to investigate all dealings of the defense dept. and haliburton, and every republican in the white house. Find a way to convince these people to join the future with a touch of social understanding. <<<Ask them why they push the " Terrorist bill of Rights " by insisting the terrorists get lawyers and civil rights.>>> They don't care about the terrorist's rights, the democrats care about yours and their rights as americans, the terrorists are illegal aliens, and shouldn't have quite the same rights as us, or should they? Hmmmm <<<Oh, why are the libs so determined to not use forced interigation to get info that will save American lives.>>> This is the computer age, only an idiot would think any useful information would be had this way. Only an idiot, or a liar trying to block efficent ways that will catch the president in the act, of breaking the law. We knew exactly who they were, cheney, blocked reports, and has been working more on this sick cabal's side blocking information. Hi carlyle, please send me a brochure, Yoo Hoo, Hi, you are still supposed to be human, so i gather youse guys are okay in some way. Cheney claims he is keeping secrets for america's defense, when it is obviously for his own personal defense and keeps him out of jail. In jail is where cheney will be happiest, and they will have plenty of nurses to make sure his heart stays regular. <<<Why are the libs traitors who give away our national security secrets?>>> Why it was the known republican traitors in the whtie house who did this. Cheney, rove, scooter libby. <<<Why are the libs still sticking up for BJ CLinton and Carter. Both total disgraces to America.>>> Because the wealth was shared with slightly more honest people, for a few years. President Jimmy Carter, the last truely honest president. Maybe the first in years that honest. The ceo's hated him. He gave up the pomp and cirucumstance for a more honest, intellectual and spiritual view of life, something that ford didn't have, after replacing the known liar, richard nixon. If you remember nobody trusted the government then, but now they don't trust bush, at about 10 times that emotion. <<<Ask them why the dictators and terrorsts around the world use the words of our liberals in their anti American spreeches.>>> Because truth can be a powerful thing. Everyone, republican, democrat, non-partisan, and terrorist thug, reads what i say, and laughs a lot. OUt loud even. But then you'll just say i'm full of myself, hee hee. Oh, well. <<<Ask them the last time a terrorist used a conservatives words in their hate America speeches.>>> When was the last time a republican openned their mouth? <<<Ask them why they insist on taxing the hell out of the rich and why they are to dumb to figure out the rich are the people who create jobs.>>> You tax the rich becasue they got all their money from their customers, and they tend to forget that, and think they deserve what they earn. Everyone who is rich, has made their money by a strangle hold on some human need, so they tend to be heartless, thus unintelligent republicans. They forget they are just parasites taking advantage of others wants, and think they are responsible for the machine that automatically, without their help, pursues those wants. Taxes are a replacement for a Maximum salary. <<<Ask them why they want to turn America into a Euroloser nation like France.>>> Bush already did that. Americans can't afford deodorant anymore. I'm sorry french people, i really am just kidding, hee hee. gulp. <<<Ask them why they push global warming today when they pushed global cooling 20 years ago.>>> Absurd. Plankton is dying because of the heating of the oceans surface. Oxygen is disappearing, as well as the air filling with carbon dioxide, and other pollutants. The planet is indeed in trouble. <<<Ask them why they can't get anybody to listen to them on the radio.>>> Advertisers are scared to death to support a show that says anthing about the known traitor, george bush. Instead they only allow what they are being forced to say. <<<Ask them why they are so miserable and unhappy with their lives.>>> Republicans are the unhappy ones, who lie, and start wars with weak nations, like iraq, that had been under democratic sanctions, and bombed occassionally since '92. Isn't rush a republican? He's in so much pain he's on painkillers, isn't he? Oh i guess you count that as being happy. He can't feel much pain. <<<They are the ones destroying everything they touch on purpose, and then crying about it, and blaming their other siblings. <<<Ask them to tell you a place where liberalism has ever worked when it has been tried. ( Sweden sucks RT )>>> America. <<<Ask them for any new ideas period.>>> Impeach Bush Now! Oh, wait, that's an old idea. But it's still a new idea to the republicans who want to believe in themselves again. <<<Liberalism is the politics of the stupid. It's that simple.>>> Are you saying your a liberal now? What's going on?
Originally Posted By DAR <<Radical islam disappears when the threat is gone. Get rid of bush. People go back to being just islamic.>> Yes radical Islam didn't happen before Bush was President. I guess the whole Munich massacare was the work of those who follow normal Islam. Same thing with Achille Lauro. The marines dying in Lebanon. The TWA hijacking. I'm sure those are all Bush's fault.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Ed is the voice of the modern democrat party sadly enough. He sounds like Howard Dean, Lamont, Kerry, Pelosi and the rest of them. Pretty scary.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd Well you are right, bush senior had already stirred up the muslim radicals. I remember telling my friend from michegan, a republican, poor thing, i told him we would be repayed by terrorists for the rest of our lives, for what bush sr. did in iraq. I think everyone knows it's time for a sensible intelligent democrat or non-partisan to take things over, and get things back on track. The republican ceo's will thank me personally, i promise. I promise i will not stop working until everyone is happy, not a soul left out, and i'll come last to prove it. Unless you want to do it, which is fine by me too.
