Originally Posted By RoadTrip I sometimes don't understand the generic hatred of cops by some at this site. Sure, there are cops that make terrible and at times criminal decisions. So do people in just about every occupation. But we ask these people to try to maintain the public's safety in the most heavily armed and violent population on earth, and pay them considerably less than what they could make driving a truck. All things considered the vast majority of them do a damn good job.
Originally Posted By Kusin_It you, passholder, ddman and tom sawyer have been watching too much wizard of oz with your scarecrow building and or introduction of irrelevant arguments. nobody here hates all cops, only the thugs. this is a story about a cop who murdered not about who the victim is. lay off the straw and stop the diversionary tactics
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<you, passholder, ddman and tom sawyer have been watching too much wizard of oz with your scarecrow building and or introduction of irrelevant arguments. nobody here hates all cops, only the thugs.>> Oh really? "Cop culture" seems pretty inclusive to me. <<No we're not. We're talking about cop culture getting out of control. That some people can be smarter how they act around cops is a pretty obvious idea that sidetracks the conversation.>>
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I sometimes don't understand the generic hatred of cops by some at this site.<< Sigh. Yet more dogged responding to stuff no one said. What has been raised on this site are high-profile incidents involving police violence against unarmed African American men. What has been noted, and consistently ignored, is how black men are overwhelmingly targeted and arrested by police officers. What has also been noted, and mostly ignored, is the meticulous reporting of people like Radley Balko who have detailed a massive rise in violent force by police with a simultaneous drop in accountability, both in departments and in the courts. The data has made it clear that there are serious systemic problems with policing in the United States. And what is the ad nauseam response every time? "Hey, not all cops are bad ha know!" Gee, thanks for answering a question no one asked.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Here's a stellar example of the "serious systemic problems" ecdc cited: <> On its face, the police murder of Eric Harris, a 44-year-old father in Tulsa, Oklahoma, was wrong. Surrounded by police, Harris had surrendered and was on the ground when Bob Bates, a deputy, claims to have accidentally shot him with a handgun instead of his Taser. For what was being called a mistake, Bates was charged with second degree manslaughter. All by itself, with no more details, that story was bad, but when the video was released showing Harris nervously gasping for air, screaming that he couldn't breathe, and asking why he was shot—only to have another officer, Joe Byars, tell him, "fuck your breath"—it became increasingly clear that what we had was not only a mistake, but something deeply inhumane and troubling on a scale that the country wasn't quite prepared for. But, it turns out, the true story is more scandalous than any of us could've ever imagined. Not only is Bates a fake volunteer police officer (Tulsa calls them "reserve deputies"), it turns out Bates he was lavishing the department with international cruises in the Bahamas and Mexico, took regular fishing trips with the lead sheriff, Sheriff Stanley Glanz, and also was the chairman of the sheriff's recent campaign. “Bob Bates came on board because he had all this money,” one former reserve deputy said, adding that the sheriff and other higher-ups would “go on these cruises in the Bahamas and in Mexico all the time.” “[Bates] foots the bill,” the deputy added. “The sheriff just gave him free rein because he was treating him right. He bought his way into this position.” Another former full-time deputy said Bates was “getting glad-handed” around the office because of his wealth. “This is your typical Southern good ol’ boys system,” he said, adding that before the shooting Bates planned to take Glanz on a fishing trip to Florida. It gets deeper. Now, not wanting to go down with a sinking ship, people inside of the department are talking, as you can read beneath the fold. Supervisors at the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office were ordered to falsify a reserve deputy’s training records, giving him credit for field training he never took and firearms certifications he should not have received, sources told the Tulsa World. At least three of reserve deputy Robert Bates’ supervisors were transferred after refusing to sign off on his state-required training, multiple sources speaking on condition of anonymity told the World. Now Sheriff Stanley Glanz, who went on fishing trips and international cruises paid for by Bates, is claiming he can't find the paperwork verifying the certification Bates was required to have to even be out with officers the day he killed Harris. This isn't just disorganization. This scandal cost Harris his life. It's increasingly clear that Bates, who also purchased police vehicles for the department, was given so much freedom because of the gifts he showered on the department, that he felt like he could do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted. Beyond being 73 years old, he had no business even attempting to Taser a subdued Harris—not to mention shoot and kill him. Heads need to roll here. The Justice Department must intervene. This department absolutely cannot investigate itself. <> Some rich septuagenarian wants to play cop and a subdued unarmed man gets killed. He didn't have the necessary training, but he had the bucks to literally BRIBE his way into the role. What kind of effn police department allows this kind of behavior? Taking money, going on cruises, falsifying certifications so the sugar daddy can pretend to shoot a 'dangerous bad guy' who wasn't at all dangerous? My guess is, a significant chunk of police departments across the country engage in this "pay to play" nonsense. Or at the very least, they take innocent citizens' cash and property through "asset forfeiture" in order to fund their paramilitary operations and other questionable activities. We have reached the police state. Yes, there are good cops. But there are way too many bad cops, mostly at the top of the food chain, running the show. These are the "serious systemic problems" that need to be investigated on a massive scale by the DOJ. Black lives matter. All lives matter. Enough is enough.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Oops, forgot the story link: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/16/1378190/-Unjust-police-killing-of-Tulsa-man-Eric-Harris-reveals-a-deep-and-dangerous-scandal-in-Oklahoma">http://www.dailykos.com/story/...Oklahoma</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<My guess is, a significant chunk of police departments across the country engage in this "pay to play" nonsense.>> And this would be based on???
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Here ya go: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.businessinsider.com/playing-cop-fatal-shooting-by-reserve-sheriffs-deputy-sparks-debate-about-use-of-such-volunteers-2015-4">http://www.businessinsider.com...s-2015-4</a> The problem with police volunteers who aren't actually cops by Ryan Gorman Apr. 14, 2015, 2:40 PM <> The role of an elderly reserve sheriff’s deputy in a fatal shooting in Tulsa, Oklahoma has raised questions about the widespread use of such volunteers. Insurance executive Robert Bates, 73, turned himself in to police Tuesday after a dashcam video of the confrontation in which he "inadvertently" shot suspect Eric Harris made headlines. He faces a second-degree homicide charge for the killing, which took place during an undercover operation. Bates, who has donated thousands of dollars in equipment to the sheriff's department, was one of its volunteers who ride along with officers on law enforcement operations. Harris's family questioned the use of Bates in such an undercover operation. "We do believe something is deeply wrong with the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office," they said in a statement. The practice, which goes back to the Wild West when citizens were brought in to help sheriffs nab outlaws, is defended by many in the law enforcement community. Peter Moreno, a 28-year NYPD veteran who rose to the rank of captain before retiring in 2011, told Business Insider that reserve officers are valuable to law enforcement around the country, especially in smaller departments that use them to defray costs. “They’re often used for these undercover type things [because] they’re not well known,” Moreno explained, adding that the NYPD often deploys them on underage drinking stings. Moreno also explained that most reserve or auxiliary officers are armed and that training varies across departments. Bates is one of more than 100 reserve deputies used by the TCSO, a department spokesperson recently told the Tulsa World newspaper, admitting that many are wealthy benefactors of the force. Bates is a former police officer, he served one year on the force in the mid-1960s, but his widely reported donations in recent years have led to claims he paid to play cop. This scenario is not unique to Tulsa. Oakley, Michigan’s police department asks preemptive deputies to donate $1,200 for the privilege, Salon reported. “These people drop four or five grand and dress up to look like police,” Donna LaMontaine, president of the Deputy Sheriffs Association of Michigan, told Salon. “I have a problem with that.” The Walker County (AL) Sheriff’s Office requires all reserves to buy their own gear and firearms at a total cost of about $500 but does not require donations, according to the department’s website. A message left by Business Insider seeking further information about the program has yet to be returned. Bates’ advanced age is as much a part of the debate as the path he took to the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office’s (TCSO) reserve deputy program. The NYPD mandates that all employees, full-time or reserve, retire by the age of 62 - except the department commissioner. Current commissioner William Bratton is 67-years-old. Riverside County (CA) has no maximum age for reserve deputies, according to the sheriff’s office website. People as young as 18 can even sign up, provided they pass the training courses. Law enforcement agencies in Western Massachusetts mostly require all public safety personnel to retire by the age of 65, according to the Franklin Regional Retirement System. When asked if it was common to have someone as old as Bates in the line of duty, Moreno said: “They may not have an age restriction there, they may want to have one.” Varying requirements have resulted in a fractured law enforcement system with no uniform standard for training, a fact not lost on full-time police officers. “I believe the ‘part time’ system of policing is absolutely ridiculous,” an unnamed officer griped to PoliceOne.com in a comment referenced in a Washington Post article. "The job has changed since walking down the street and spinning your baton … We contend with more anti-police groups, 24/7 video taping, and more charging and law suit filings then ever before. “As such, to do this job without a full salary and full benefits is insane.” Several celebrities, including NBA great Shaquille O'Neal and action star Steven Seagal, have also served as reserve deputies, the Post noted. It is not clear how much training Bates received from the TCSO or if anyone within the force ever expressed concerns about his age or other ability to handle the stresses of tagging along with the Violent Crimes Task Force, as he did on the day he shot Harris. Several messages left by Business Insider for multiple officials within the department have yet to be returned. <> You can thank the Tea Party Governors and their lapdogs in the state legislatures for this one. As police departments and sheriff offices continue to have their funding slashed by GOP teabaggers, they're reaching out to other sources, such as rich folks wanting to play NCIS for real, to keep their departments rolling. (This is also the reason for the dramatic increase in "asset forfeiture" incidents across the country.) Granted, many departments such as the one highlighted in New York make certain that their volunteer deputies are properly trained and used appropriately. But many non-urban departments, like the one in Tulsa, are not going to care as much because there's no one at a higher level looking over their shoulders. They're unsupervised and they know it. So they do whatever it takes to get those almighty dollars into their departments, even if it means falsifying records so that the rich sugar daddies fork over the goods.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I thought the Tulsa incident was an aberration. It clearly is a practice that should be discontinued... in fact made illegal. I had no idea crap like that occurred routinely except for minor duties like traffic control, etc.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox I didn't know either, RT. And I fully agree with you. This pay-to-play garbage should be outlawed. Those officers posting at PoliceOne.com are correct that this stuff is insane.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Not all cops are bad. But the ones who are need to be prosecuted for abusing their power. That's all.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "Huh? You should visit Long Beach or Los Angeles or Chicago or Detroit or Philadelphia or........... sometime." Why? You do realize that there are organizations that count these things: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1994-2013.xls">http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cj...2013.xls</a> <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-violent-crime-1970s-level-20141110-story.html">http://www.chicagotribune.com/...ory.html</a> I really don't think visiting those cities will really tell me much more.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Anybody signed up for a ride along? Anybody ever been on one?
Originally Posted By Kusin_It why would we do that? the thug and coward is not likely to beat or shoot a harmless person on the street if he knows their is somebody watching. are you for real? your stupid test means nothing.
Originally Posted By Kusin_It im starting to get the impression that you are a thug too since you excuse such barbarism and you are in law enforcement.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 One can assume too much. SPP is no thug. I think we'd all do well with a little more empathy in general. You read the comments section of any news piece on these incidents, and it's full of people who seem to think either ALL cops or ALL black men are thugs, inherently violent, not to be trusted - or at the very least that's their baseline assumption. Sure would be nice if we could see a little more empathy for cops, most of whom do a tough job well, and also empathy for people who get improperly hurt or killed by cops - fully understanding that sometimes there are criminals who threaten cops, and also bad cops who shoot people without sufficient cause.
Originally Posted By Kusin_It and since you like tests so much how about you sign up for a day in poverty and take off your underserved badge and see first hand what the black population has to deal with not only from police but from society as a whole. pick any city. philadelphia or kc, I don't care.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<and since you like tests so much how about you sign up for a day in poverty and take off your underserved badge and see first hand what the black population has to deal with not only from police but from society as a whole. pick any city. philadelphia or kc, I don't care.>> And why don't you stop acting like a total jerk? Seeing as how SPP works with single mothers going after deadbeat dads, I'm quite certain he has a fair idea of the hurdles faced by those living in poverty. I would also guess many of the clients he works with are Black.
