Originally Posted By twirlnhurl "twirlnhurl, you are obviously: a) way too old to remember your own adolescence b) ignorant of human developmental stages c) a person who has had a charmed life d) all of the above" As an 18 year old male geek, I find this quite laughable. I know from experience that it is much easier to not care about the opinions of those who mock you then it is to somehow "get them in trouble". Occasionally, I found it easy and fun to beat the verbal assailant to the punch, calling myself far worse then whatever they could come up with. That usually dulled their attack, because they knew that I was better at it then them. To make rules against bullying is to make it much harder to track, diagnose, and correct. If you say certain words are wrong, then they will use innocent sounding words. I think depression is much easier to spot when the impetus is visible. How can you express in words how bad something is if it is using harmless sentences. The only way to prevent bullying is to arm the victim emotionally, not to try to disarm the attacker. Like I said earlier, words don't mean anything until someone hears them, (talk to a British person about fags) so the "victim" is the one who needs help. At the end of the day, you can't punish a child for emotional scars because they are impossible to quantify. How much of that was really the bully? Growing up is tough as hell, and I bet most emotional scars are just caused by that, but a bully provides a tangible thing to throw the blame on. I know I felt stupid when my parents asked me what's wrong when the answer was a "lot of things" (bullies being the least of them). You feel a lot stupider if you can't answer the question because it is complicated. It is so easy to say that "so and so is a moron." I know several people were severely bullied (they tried to act cool, when a more effective disarmament is to one-up the negative statement) but they didn't kill themselves. It takes serious emotional problems at places other then school to push someone so far as to kill themselves. Three or four people telling you that you are worthless shouldn't be enough to make you truly believe you are worthless. You would need that suspicion beforehand for it to work. Sorry for that rambling response. I bet it doesn't make sense, oh well.
Originally Posted By twirlnhurl As an addition to the above: I should point out that I didn't really get bullied until about fourth grade, and I do understand that my method for dealing with it doesn't work at younger ages, however, at younger ages it is easier to control one's kids access to technology.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Good parenting, good communication, good ol' fashioned love and caring, spending time with your kid, forcing your kid to spend time with yout... You would be surprised how far that old school stuff will go with today's modern, disconncected, wired, online, desensitized pre-teenagers. It all comes back to the home, and unitl they are grown and gone, or at least gone, everything your kids do is in some small way a reflection of you as a parent, either in what you do or what you don't do. All said IMHO.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<I should point out that I didn't really get bullied until about fourth grade, and I do understand that my method for dealing with it doesn't work at younger ages, however, at younger ages it is easier to control one's kids access to technology.>> Good point. But I'm still going to go with: "b) ignorant of human developmental stages" Your mistake is a common one. It's the assumption that "because I did it, everyone else can do it." You're obviously bright. Rationalization has worked for you. But not everyone else who's victimized has the emotional, social, familial, and/or intellectual resources you have. <<To make rules against bullying is to make it much harder to track, diagnose, and correct. If you say certain words are wrong, then they will use innocent sounding words.>> Sure, cracking down on bullying will drive some of it underground, will make some bullies more careful. But it's important to have rules against bullying. The very existance of rules sends an important message to (potential) bullies and (potential) victims. It legitimizes the issue. Rules provide a basis for taking action when bullying occurs. And not all bullying is going to be driven underground. Many idiots will continue to be blatant. Others may become craftier, but will eventually establish a pattern of harassment that can be considered actionable. <<At the end of the day, you can't punish a child for emotional scars [they inflict] because they are impossible to quantify.>> Sure you can. For one, you can punish them for specific behavioral rules they've violated, without regard to the effects the behavior had. Secondly, in our society there are all kinds of precedent for establishing consequence -- even difficult-to-quantify consequence, such as emotional duress -- when evaluating guilt and/or punishment. <<The only way to prevent bullying is to arm the victim emotionally, not to try to disarm the attacker.>> Why not pursue both avenues at the same time? <<I know several people were severely bullied (they tried to act cool, when a more effective disarmament is to one-up the negative statement) but they didn't kill themselves.>> Good for them. Their strength is completely irrelevant to the kids who just couldn't take it any longer, though. (See "individuals have differing abilities," above.) <<It takes serious emotional problems at places other then school to push someone so far as to kill themselves. Three or four people telling you that you are worthless shouldn't be enough to make you truly believe you are worthless. You would need that suspicion beforehand for it to work.>> Interesting viewpoint. I'm not sure I agree with it. No, it SHOULDN'T be possible for daily harrassment to erode a person's self-esteem, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens. A lot. Besides, that doesn't let bullies off the hook. Say someone DOES have other issues that cause her to doubt her own self worth. A bully comes along and pushes her over the edge. It's not a credible defense for that bully to say, "She was already messed up." Bottom line for me: there is no defense for bullying. And the consequences are not the fault of the victim. Thanks for your response, twirlnhurl. And thanks for being an "out" geek! Say it loud, say it proud!
Originally Posted By onlyme There are plenty of adult's who enjoy the pleasures of 'cyber-bullying', as well. This site has a couple of real winners. But, I guess it's much more traumatic for children than it is for adults. But, it's still irritating to have the same person(s) ridicule everything you say-just because it's 'you', who said it.
Originally Posted By twirlnhurl Inspector, I feel like you have definitely made some good points, maybe some that I don't agree with, but still valid points worthy of my consideration. It is clear that your viewpoint (along with others here) is more then just a "bullying is bad because... bullying is bad." So in light of that, I feel that I should apologize for speaking in a tone that is probably harsher then was required.
Originally Posted By gardenrooms <<Why not pursue both avenues at the same time?>> I agree wholeheartedly! As a fairly new teacher (4 years) with lots of life experience(50+ years), what I am seeing schools teaching programs to bolster the victims, a great idea, and then expecting the victims to deal with the bullies on their own, which many or most can't. Being a bully has consequences in my classroom, and if my students are bullied on the yard or in the after school program, where much of the bullying takes place and is ignored, I support my students in dealing with those bullies as well as needed. The victims who are unable to handle the bullies are too often viewed by adults as tattlers or weak. Well, of course they're weak, they're children, and telling about something cruel someone is doing repeatedly is not tattling, it's a cry for help. (I do not support tattling, or telling just to get someone into trouble, which this is not.) My kids' lives are tough enough as it is without someone making them afraid to play at recess or to go to the after school program because they know the verbal abuse waiting for them there. As far as turning off the computer to solve cyber bullying, that does not solve the biggest problem, which is that the abuse is so widely known (and accepted?). Even though the victiim might not know what exactly is being said, probably everyone he or she comes into contact with at school does know and is likely to join in in person. Don't see how that helps, in fact, it might even hirt - after all, forewarned is forearmed.
Originally Posted By jasmine7 <<There are plenty of adult's who enjoy the pleasures of 'cyber-bullying', as well.<< Yes, indeed. I was "cyber-bullied" just before I came to this site by people on another message board, and it went on for several months. The stuff they said was absolutely abhorrent, and I wasn't the only person they did this to. There were about three or four of them that did the majority of it, and they would slam anyone who didn't agree with their point of view, but I guess because I tried to be gentler with them than some of the others, I got attacked a lot. It got to the point where I was literally sick because of things they were saying. It's really easy to say turn the computer off and walk away, but unfortunately, the painful words don't go away that easily. Their words would stick with me and haunt me at work. Luckily, this site helped me to quit posting on that other board (along with the encouragement of my mom and friends).
Originally Posted By gardenrooms jasmine7, that's terrible. So sorry to hear what you went through, and so glad you left those people and came here.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<So in light of that, I feel that I should apologize for speaking in a tone that is probably harsher then was required.>> Let me be the first person NOT to throw a stone! This thread feels like a real conversation. Too many threads consist of posts in which people just get dug in. Thank you for ALL your posts here. <<The victims who are unable to handle the bullies are too often viewed by adults as tattlers or weak. Well, of course they're weak, they're children>> OMG. That quote should be emailed to all parents, stenciled onto a wall of every teachers' lounge, and made available on t-shirts. <<Yes, indeed. I was "cyber-bullied" just before I came to this site by people on another message board, and it went on for several months.>> Oh, man, I'm sorry! Idiots. I certainly hope you feel welcome and appreciated here!
