Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Actually the 46 I own are less than 6 months old. I'll be able to replace them in 2 1/2 years for the new Palin stickers that will be coming out then!>> That's forward thinking ... wait, you do realize she's against that, right? ~Pass the Pixie Dust~
Originally Posted By MPierce >> That's forward thinking ... wait, you do realize she's against that, right? << She only needs to think 4 years in advance now, and hope there's still something left to salvage.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^Yeah ... and four years to blame the past few decades (and especially the last eight years) on a man who has been in office all of a month! ~Pass the Pixie Dust~
Originally Posted By MPierce ^^^That's what politics is all about, and we both know it. Remember you are in favor of the party's working together. Just remember as long as any name calling exist on either side that won't happen. I'm sure the President will be judged on his full body of work come the next election. His first month has been shakey to say the least, but we're all along for the ride now. No matter which direction it takes.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I want to see both parties act responsible for the American people. I don't want to see people bickering about things in partisan fashion. The Republicans may not like it, but their ticket was soundly kicked in the election. That means a fairly large majority of Americans want to see the current guy succeed. He has been left a mess of unprecendented proportions ... and to see the other party just say 'we're not working with you, so when you fail because of the horrendous mess our guy left behind and our unwillingness to work with you, we can tell the American people we told ya so' makes me ill.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 spirit- really no different than 8 years ago - Dem's were miffed they didn't retain White House and were obstructionists ( some of those people still around - Pelosi - Reid) - I didn't like it then and I don't like it now -- but really- neither party is above that nonsense- that's the real problem. How many Dems openly wanted to see Reagan fail ? Ditto for GOP's with Clinton.. the ultimate losers are the American people
Originally Posted By MPierce The mess was left by both parties, not just one person. Do you really expect people to vote for what they consider a very bad bill, mainly because nobody knows exactly what it contains, just so they can hug each other, and talk about bipartisanship. Remember who was happy when the Republicans bucked Bush on the last joke of a bill to stimulate the economy. What's different now?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<What's different now?>> The country and the planet are in considerably worse shape then they were in say 1984 ... or 1988 ... or 1992 ... or 2000 ... I would hope we can ALL agree on that. I don't want anyone to sign a bill like this without due dilligence. But why should this be any different than when W pushed through the Patriot Act -- one of the most far-reaching pieces of legislation that took away so many of our freedoms? No one read it. That's just another reason why our country is broken right now. How can you have bills like that, or Bush's Wall Street bailout or Obama's current stimulus that aren't being read by anyone voting on them? Who is writing and reading them? Interns? Lobbyists? Blackwater and Haliburton and ExxonMobil and GE lawyers? Seriously. Doesn't ALL of these pieces of legislation scare the pooh out of you?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 they do - but you are assuming that many of our elected officials are actually bright enough to read and understand them. I see some of the people we've sent to Washington from here - sorry, this is no Mensan clique out there right now... yes, over legislation and control does scare me...sit back and think of all the things the government can conrol today vs. lets say 1960. I saw a commercial the other day on an old cartoon program hisotyr - that showed the Flintstones smoking. Now I know smoking is bad for you - but we're just talking about control: can't advertise hard liquor in many locations/ magazines etc - can't smoke almost anywhere these days ( although I appreciate no 2nd hand smoke) we're just talking legislation- you have to have a license to do almost anything but poop -- heck in Chicago the mayor passed an ordinance banning Foie Gras. Pretty soon the Chinese government control over how many kids one can have may not seem extreme at all. It's like unless we pass a law to control everything - the assumption is people in general are too stupid to think for themselves.
Originally Posted By dshyates Given that I am a smoker, drinker, and gay to boot, I am all for individual freedoms. That is a GOP mantra, but they pass all the socail control "Moralistic" type laws (aside from smoking, that is a lib thing). I don't mind reasonable 2nd hand smoking laws, but banning smoking at a ciger bar? OK, I realize that you can't require someone to work in a smoke ladden environment, but who get a job at a cigar bar then complains about the smoke. That is like a Fireman saying he won't get near a fire because its bad for his health.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 but banning smoking at a ciger bar? exactly what I am talking about - those kinds of 'controls'
Originally Posted By vbdad55 We have some golf courses here now banning cigars also.... robot world here we come
Originally Posted By MPierce >> We have some golf courses here now banning cigars also.... robot world here we come << It's getting harder, and harder to do a lot of things that a chosen few in society look down upon.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Republicans bucked Bush on the last joke of a bill to stimulate the economy. What's different now? >> >> The country and the planet are in considerably worse shape then they were in say 1984 ... or 1988 ... or 1992 ... or 2000 ... I would hope we can ALL agree on that. << I was talking about the $750 billion stimulous package that was just rammed down everybody's throat to begin with. I certainly agree we are in worse shape than we were in, say 2006. >> But why should this be any different than when W pushed through the Patriot Act -- one of the most far-reaching pieces of legislation that took away so many of our freedoms? No one read it. << Then both of my Senators lied to me. Exactly what is it that bothers you so much in that Bill. I really want to know. Which Freedom have you lost. I am being bery sincere, with my question. >> That's just another reason why our country is broken right now. << Our country is broken because we as Americans were convinced we could live beyond our means with no repercussions. We have Greedy Big Business, and Irresponsible Government to blame for this. BUT the real burden falls on each American that chose this reckless lifestyle. >> Who is writing and reading them? Interns? Lobbyists? Blackwater and Haliburton and ExxonMobil and GE lawyers? Seriously. << A few concerned Poitiicans, and a larger group of unconcerned Politicians influenced by Lobbyist, and Big Business pay-offs. Nothing like some good old PORK to spice up a Bill. The worse decision I think the Supreme Court ever made was in rescending the Line Item Veto Act. An act submitted by Republicans with a sitting Democratic President. Now that would have been a truly bipartisan act.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> -- heck in Chicago the mayor passed an ordinance banning Foie Gras. << Please tell me you are joking VBDAD!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Given that I am a smoker, drinker, and gay to boot, << Do you ever get the feeling some people treat you as an outcast Dave?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< But why should this be any different than when W pushed through the Patriot Act -- one of the most far-reaching pieces of legislation that took away so many of our freedoms? >>> <<< Which Freedom have you lost. >>> Well, let's see: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated," How do you think warrantless wiretaps conducted outside even the scope of the FISA court fits into this? What about wholesale collection of data regarding every phone call you place and receive, website you visit, and email you send or receive? The prior administration's stance was that collecting all of this data on each and every communication for every person was not an "unreasonable search" as long as the content of the communication was not collected, but I suspect a great many Americans would consider it otherwise. "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." See above. "nor shall any person ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" What do you think about what happened to Jose Padilla? He was a US citizen arrested on US soil, and held as an enemy combatant for years without any charges being laid against him, and without access to a judge or any remedy whatsoever. More regarding Padilla: "the accused shall enjoy the right to: - a speedy and public trial - by an impartial jury - be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation - be confronted with the witnesses against him - have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor - to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense. " Padilla had none of these. Even if you're okay with the "enemy combatant" notion applying to aliens captured on the field of battle, how could you possibly think that this would apply to a US citizen arrested on US soil? So yes, some of us feel that freedoms have been taken away. Don't act so surprised.
Originally Posted By MPierce SuperDry all of these things are being conducted without the issue of a warrant by a Judge? You mean to say our discussion is being monitored by our Government right now? I suppose you have access to the complete story of Joe Padilla also. Please continue naming more American citizens that are having their rights violated by the Patriot act, please. At what time was this act overturned by the Supreme Court. Surly something as unpatriotic as the Patriot Act would have been challenged in the Supream Court by now or are they part of the great conspiracy also? If a federal court has ruled some things unconstitutional why hasn't it been hammered by the Justices? It would seem some folks oppose the USA Patriot ACT, however it would seem even more support it along with the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of our Government. I suggest it's going to take much more than some folks talking bad about it to remove it. Let's wait, and see what the new President has to say. Why not give our Republic a chance to work?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I suppose you have access to the complete story of Joe Padilla also. >>> When did I ever claim to have such access? <<< Please continue naming more American citizens that are having their rights violated by the Patriot act, please. >>> For the purposes of this discussion, one is one too many. The President should not have the power to jail US citizens in isolation indefinitely without charges or access to a judge or lawyer. <<< At what time was this act overturned by the Supreme Court. >>> You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. At no time did I claim that this had happened.
