Originally Posted By MPierce >> That's OK. I stopped reading when it started to turn. << and when would that be?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>It still boils down to we are a nation of laws. We can debate right, and wrong all day, and all night. The fact is we do not know the content of each action brought about concerning the Patriot Act, nor will we ever know all the facts of a case unless we are the Judge.<<< Sorry my friend, but I must disagree. If all of a sudden murder or rape became legal, does that make it right? There is still and ethos and ideology at play, and the Patriot Act runs counter to the creedence of life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness. The right are worried about Obama's social policy, and yet the Patriot Act is far more commonly aligned with Communist policy than social medicine or employment reform.
Originally Posted By dshyates Actually, MP. All the things on the Wiki are sourced at the bottom. But requesting the financial transaction records of over 1,000,000 Americans is enough to raise a red flag or 2. And the firing and restacking of the Justice Department should also be a concern. Not to mention the warrentless wiretapping of us ALL, too would be a concern. Flat out the Patriot Act is a Constitutional abomination.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Sorry my friend, but I must disagree. If all of a sudden murder or rape became legal, does that make it right? There is still and ethos and ideology at play, and the Patriot Act runs counter to the creedence of life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness. << Come on Dave that's going off the deep end or hyperbole taken up a notch. I have to go now but, "I Shall Return"!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But it get's my point across. saying that you have given nothing up is hyperbole too, as a counter point. Please forgive my brevity, it has been a long week of citing sources and debating policy, and I am tired, and the pathetic approaches to the WAR on Terror (which cannot be one, that was in National Security 101 when I did my degree) just angers me and I have little patience for it. So it means the drama comes in.
Originally Posted By MPierce That's OK Dave I was so distraught from everybody arguing that I got a bag of Fritoe Lay Scoopes, a can of Jalapeno Bean Dip, and locked myself in the Bedroom. I put on my headphones, and cranked up the volume of my ABBA CD's, and pigged out. I feel so much better today. I understand how folks have concern over the Patriot Act, but all I ever here is it's a violation of the Constitution. Title II is a slippery slope, I agree. My point is that after being put into law back in 2001, it's still on the books. Congress even extended sections of it that were due to expire in 2006. If this law is such a violation of our Constitution how come it hasn't been challenged up to the Supreme Court by now? That's the only point I cared about making. I certainly don't have a degree in Constitutional Law, that's why I pay taxes. I pay to have my Justices, and Representives in Washington D.C. to decide these things. Are they always right, heck no. If we truly consider our Constitution a sacred document, and I do, we need to work within the frame work of it. That means abiding by the law, reguardless of how we feel about it. If this is bad law it will be rooted out. I have to believe that. I'm about Patriot Acted out now. I'll leave it to you guys. I never realized what a lovely song "Fernando" was before this.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>If this is bad law it will be rooted out. I have to believe that.<<< Well prohibition was repealed, so you never know.
Originally Posted By MPierce ^^^ And that took repealing an Amendment to the Constitution to accomplish!
Originally Posted By Socrates Reply to #88: My take is that either countries don't want to run the risk of upsetting China by taking them, or they actually believe the Bush Administration. The latest info I've seen is this: <a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0223/p02s01-usmi.html" target="_blank">http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/...smi.html</a> Note this part: Not all Canadians are happy about the idea. "Some have heard the Bush administration say these are 'the worst of the worst,'" Ms. Dench says. "There have been hostile comments and hate mail, but also people who are supportive and pleased to see Canadians playing this role." Socrates "If you believe everything you read, better not read." Japanese Proverb
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 ^^So true. IMHO if the government wants to wiretap someone they legitimatily consider a threat to USA or the world, go for it. If they tap my phone or check out my e-mail, they will be bored senseless. Maybe us voters should be more educated before casting our votes, we're the ones who put those politians in office.
Originally Posted By dshyates "IMHO if the government wants to wiretap someone they legitimatily consider a threat to USA or the world, go for it." That is what the FISA Court is for. You CAN'T spy on American citizens without a warrent. Plain and simple. We have a system in place just for such situations. You can wiretap ANYONE you want AFTER you get a warrent. But you need probable cause to get a warrent. But the Bush Admistration ignored the court process and did what they wanted. That is illegal.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^I don't think the prior leadership was all that worried about following the law to begin with (hope you're enjoying the Mama Mia soundtrack, Pierce!) and acted accordingly. I don't believe the current Prez is overly concerned with getting rid of the legislation in one swipe because he likely -- and correctly -- knows the other party (the one led by the fat drug using talk radio dude) would pounce on the guy for killing something with the word PATRIOT in it. I think he'll likely just take it apart it pieces a little at a time ... which may be politically wise, but is also safe ... and I don't like that. As to the 'I have nothing to hide so let 'em look' argument ... well, I just am going to say we all have a fundamental right to privacy. The government doesn't get to go fishing for 'evildoers' in every home in the country it wants ... because that's what real evildoers like Commies and Nazis do. I may not be an 'evildoer' but I don't want anyone listening to my conversations, taping them, monitoring how long I spend posting on Disney sites or reading certain writers, what my doctor prescribes, what I spend my money on and how etc ... that, BTW, is exactly what the GOP used to rally against until this bizarro America happened. ~5000=The Dow's new 8500~
Originally Posted By hopemax You saw the paperwork released by the White House today, didn't you... It's an AP article, but this is the link I read originally... <a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1152ap_terror_memos.html?source=mypi" target="_blank">http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/...rce=mypi</a> "Fourth Amendment protections against unwarranted search and seizure, for instance, did not apply in the United States as long as the president was combatting terrorism, the Justice Department said in an Oct. 23, 2001, memo. "First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to the overriding need to wage war successfully," Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo wrote, adding later: "The current campaign against terrorism may require even broader exercises of federal power domestically." Interesting idea that the Constitution can be suspended during times of War. I know it does say that habeaus corpus can be suspended, Abraham Lincoln did it during the Civil War. I didn't realize that the First Amendment and 4th amendment had that fine print too...oh wait... Can you just imagine if Democrats tried to say, justify suspension of the 2nd amendment, what would happen?
Originally Posted By dshyates Take into consideration that we STARTED the war that caused suspension. And yeah I would love to see the suspension of the 2nd amendment because we are at war with terrorists, which could include, domestic terrorists. The Right, which I guess doesn't cling to guns and religion, would have lost what little tiny teeney bit of a mind that they possess.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^I thought you were off listening to Dancing Queen or Waterloo or SOS. Great stuff ... did you know Mama Mia was wrapping its Vegas run to be replaced by The Lion King?
Originally Posted By MPierce Don't you think it was difgficult enough for a Red Neck to admit to listening to ABBA? Now you want me to fess up to keeping track of Musicals?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^That just makes you a well-rounded, wordly redneck ... and if you're gonna be one, that's the best kind!
