Originally Posted By Park Hopper Has there ever been a serious attendance problem at Disneyland Paris? I was always under the impression that it was their initial construction debt that plagued them. In fact, I remember reading once that they were the most visited tourist attraction in France. I think what I'm trying to say is that I'm having a difficult time seeing the point Hans is trying to make.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<And who's to say that a Disneyland built on the Spainish site would have done any better? It's not like the park that was finally built on that site is outperforming DLP.>> Hans, you are correct in that it would now be nothing more than conjecture as to which location would be a better performer. Since the TGV makes the trip from Paris to DLP only a half hour journey, the result is that affordable Paris hotels were close enough to the Disney site that rendered the expensive DLP hotels virtually unnecessary. It was Eisner's ego that blasted the experts which he paid big salaries to advise him on such matters.
Originally Posted By believe Isn't it interesting that DCA got criticized for having low attendance when it first opened, and now, Hong Kong Disneyland is being criticized for having too much attendance. But both parks are "half day" experiences. What's happening at Hong Kong is what the execs wished would have happened at DCA. But then, HDL is expecting 5.6 million guests, but DCA was expecting 7 million guests. The lower the expectation, the easier it is to meet. If they initially expected DCA to do 5 million a year, they'd be in good shape.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<Has there ever been a serious attendance problem at Disneyland Paris? I was always under the impression that it was their initial construction debt that plagued them. In fact, I remember reading once that they were the most visited tourist attraction in France.>> Nope, you're wrong Park Hopper....it's the most visited attraction in Europe ;D. That's why lamen's like me can't understand it. The first year, the park drew in 12 people!!! I'm not sure how many people they were expecting, but I guess it's was a lot more. Disney certianly seem to learn it's lesson though since DCA was only expected to bring in 7 million, HKDL 5.6 mil. Even TDS, the most expensive theme park ever built next door to, at the time, the most visited park in the entire world was only expected to bring in 10 million, the same as Epcot gets. Even that said, we ALL know how DCA did that first year and ironically, what this entire thread is about, TDS, while easily BEATING it's estimate by 2 million that year, but lately, it's not performing as strong and of course, HKDL is yet to be seen. So, maybe Disney is always overestimating these things or too optimistic and end up shooting themselves in the foot . Eitherway, I don't know WHAT they expected attendance wise with DLP, but if that's a 'failure', the funny thing is, it's ALWAYS been the #1 tourist attraction in Europe to this day, a continent FULL of tourist attractions everywhere you go. BTW, that dissapointing attendance DLP got that first year will probably take 3-5 years for WDSP to reach. Wow how the mighty have fallen .
Originally Posted By danyoung >The first year, the park drew in 12 people!!!< Wow - I'm guessing that was a bad year?
Originally Posted By danyoung >The first year, the park drew in 12 people!!!< Wow - I'm guessing that was a bad year?
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<Isn't it interesting that DCA got criticized for having low attendance when it first opened, and now, Hong Kong Disneyland is being criticized for having too much attendance. But both parks are "half day" experiences.>> Yeah, so true . Of course, MANY of us pre-opening were shouting about how DCA not having enough to do was going to create a huge frenzy of huge lines and chaos everywhere lol. Al Lutz was making monthly predictions about how upset and nuts it was going to get there with the few attractions and seating it had for the then supposed 30,000 people that was going to storm in all summer long. Good thing (but Disney) that we were all wrong . I guess there IS taste left in some parts of the world afterall. Now, we are all yelling at HKDL asking, "What were you thinking???" <<What's happening at Hong Kong is what the execs wished would have happened at DCA. But then, HDL is expecting 5.6 million guests, but DCA was expecting 7 million guests. The lower the expectation, the easier it is to meet.>> Yeah, the 5.6 should be a breeze. I have no doubt they will hit that THIS year. It's the following years after all the dust have settled and the masses who went will decide if riding 3 things in the park is worth the trip again? Hopefully Disney gets creative QUICK and put some actual rides in there if they want to see that measely 5 million figure maintained. <<If they initially expected DCA to do 5 million a year, they'd be in good shape.>> Yeah, but did they even get THAT in its first year?? Like I said before, DCA is LUCKY to be getting 5 million a year for the kind of park it is. MM and Knotts gets roughly this a year and they are grateful (well, maybe not so much for MM anymore lol). But DCA has DISNEY on the thing, so we can't expect anything less than what Sea World gets every year, can we??
Originally Posted By WorldDisney >The first year, the park drew in 12 people!!!< <<Wow - I'm guessing that was a bad year?>> ROTFLMAO!!! Hey, it was a huge cold front that year, what do you want??? ;D
Originally Posted By hopemax I'm not sure where you got 12 million people from. I'm not quite sure what this is from, but it looks like some stuff that probably was used in the getting Disney to HK, but it does list the attendance figures <a href="http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr99-00/english/sec/library/990in01.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr99-0 0/english/sec/library/990in01.pdf</a> and it said the 1992 figures were only 6.58 million. I've also seen 9.4 million for first full year of operation, down from 11 million. But on another site, I saw a brief history of DLP and it said that the opening day crowds were expected to be 500,000 and only 50,000 people showed up! 500,000 people!
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.scottware.com.au/theme/guide.htm" target="_blank">http://www.scottware.com.au/th eme/guide.htm</a> This shows EuroDisney getting 10 million in 1992.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Yeah, you're probably right Hopemax . It was strictly going by my crusty old memory. I guess that is what they EXPECTED to get, but they are pretty much getting that now, or am I wrong on that too? BTW, 500,000 people, the first freaking day??? Yeah, I just read that on another Disney website a few minutes ago here: <a href="http://www.solarius.com/dvp/dlp/dlp-history.htm" target="_blank">http://www.solarius.com/dvp/dl p/dlp-history.htm</a> (I guess I should've read further down about cut admission estimates ) Were they insane??? Half of million people on the first day?? I could see how 50,000 instead would be a HUGE downer to say the least ;D. Meanwhile DCA got what, 3,000 people out of the expected 30,000 that first day of operation? How do they manage to be over 90% of their first day estimates LOL. That's nuts!!
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Let me correct the DCA attendance numbers for Opening Day... DCA: 8:00 am - 12:00 pm Estimated Attendance - 38,000 Actual Attendance - 14,000 But here is the amazing thing, Disneyland got more folks that day (Thursday, February 8th, 2001), even with shorter hours! Disneyland: 10:00 am - 8:00 pm Estimated Attendance - 17,000 Actual Attendance - 17,000 And the rest of the opening weekend got worse.... Friday, February 9th DCA: 8:00 am - 12:00 pm Estimated Attendance - 38,000 Actual Attendance - 11,000 Disneyland: 10:00 am - 10:00 pm Estimated Attendance - 27,000 Actual Attendance - 18,000 Saturday, February 10th DCA: 8:00 am - 12:00 pm Estimated Attendance - 38,000 Actual Attendance - 10,000 Disneyland : 9:00 am - 12:00 pm Estimated Attendance - 38,000 Actual Attendance - 27,000 And of course, two weeks later was a three-day holiday weekend (President's Day) Friday, Feb. 16th: Disneyland operating hours 9 am - 10 pm estimate - 33K actual - 36K DCA operating hours 8 am - 12 midnight estimate - 35K actual - 17K Saturday, Feb. 17th: Disneyland operating hours 8 am - 12 midnight estimate - 43K actual - 43K DCA operating hours 8 am - 12 midnight estimate - 35K actual - 19K Sunday, Feb 18th: Disneyland operating hours 8 am - 12 midnight estimate - 45K actual - 43K DCA operating hours 8 am - 12 midnight estimate - 35K actual - 17K And here is one more day... Friday, February 23 DCA 8 am - 12 am Planned: 31,000 Revised: 15,000 Actual Park Attendance : 11,000 Disneyland 10 am - 10 pm Planned: 29,000 Revised: 29,000 (no revision ahead of time) Actual Park Attendance: 33,000 The attendance numbers are from MousePlanet.com
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "Has there ever been a serious attendance problem at Disneyland Paris?" Not serious, but the place has never drawn enough people or siphon enough cash from guest spending to cover the expense of operating the resort and reduce Euro Disney's (the company that operates it) debt. Euro Disney is essentially a money losing enterprise. They built a beautiful park and resort and yet it is a financial failure.
Originally Posted By Park Hopper So, you're saying that DCA could easily have had Disneyland Paris' problem if had they overspent on construction? In which case, you seem to be offering us a choice of failure due to unmanageable debt or failure due to low attendance. How about a scenario where they don't overspend and yet still build a park that people want to visit? Do you think Disney is capable of building such a place?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo One of the key problems that DLP had, especially in the early days, was around culture. The park was often busy (except in winter), but, and this is the big but, the average visitor thought it was going to be like a Six Flags experience. Therefore a lot of the visitors were schools and youth groups, many people brought pack lunches (and still do), and people were only buying small souvenirs. Also, they were staying off site because it was so much cheaper. They did not realise the benefits of staying in a theme hotel. So Disney have dumbed downed the offerings in the shops and watered down the menus in the counter service restaurants. The hotels are now cheaper, but the service has reduced significantly. By the time Space Mountain opened in 1995, Europe was finally starting to "get" it. However the damage had been done, and an unprecedented recession in Europe (many of my friends lost their homes during this time) hurt DLP to the core. And now we are paying for it. If DLP did not have any debts, it would now be making a huge profit. The other big problem now is that due to the debts, they cannot do much. A lot of the investments are to try and bring visitors back with events such as discounts, free meals and magic unlimited (stay on the rides without queueing) in the winter, Kids Carnival, Easter, Summer, Halloween and Christmas events. Some of these are good, but some are not. And it creates a loss of money for events (toon circus anyone?). This is similar to the X Games, Rockin the BAy etc. at DCA. My stock costs me more money every year, and I am considering selling it as I have lost a lot of faith in DLP. And before anyone starts on WDSP, they had to build it, or they would have lost the land, and someone else could have built there.
Originally Posted By kmovies Of all the Magic Kingdoms, Paris draws the least (except now it will be HK) 2004: MK, Florida 15.1 m Disneyland 13.3 m TDL 13.2 m PDL 10.2 m That doesn't at all mean it is a bad park.
Originally Posted By believe Yeah, the 5.6 should be a breeze. I have no doubt they will hit that THIS year. >>>>It's the following years after all the dust have settled and the masses who went will decide if riding 3 things in the park is worth the trip again? Hopefully Disney gets creative QUICK and put some actual rides in there if they want to see that measely 5 million figure maintained<<<< Actually, this is exactly what Disney wanted and expected for TDS. And looks like they on track for HKDL. And that's what they wanted for DCA too - but DCA was never able to meet any of that. >>>How about a scenario where they don't overspend and yet still build a park that people want to visit? Do you think Disney is capable of building such a place?<<<<<< After the misses with the Paris Studios and DCA, looks like they finally hit it with HKDL. >>>>Euro Disney is essentially a money losing enterprise. They built a beautiful park and resort and yet it is a financial failure.<<<< Actually, once they pay off all their depts, they will be making tons of money. I suggest that Disney just go ahead and pay off all the loans and be done with it. Don't they have only half a billion US$ in loans? Come on, that's less then what they lost on GO.com. Or less then how much they overpaid for Fox Network, or even ABC. Or even how much they invested in the Anaheim Angels and Mighty Ducks. They should just pay it off and start earning some profits!
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I suggest that Disney just go ahead and pay off all the loans and be done with it. Don't they have only half a billion US$ in loans? Come on, that's less then what they lost on GO.com. Or less then how much they overpaid for Fox Network, or even ABC. Or even how much they invested in the Anaheim Angels and Mighty Ducks. They should just pay it off and start earning some profits!<< It doesn't work that way in Accounting (unfotunately). DLP has to service is own debt before it can calculate its profits. The bottom line is: what should Disney do with its cash and cash equivalent assets? Bear in mind that these are not stuffed into a mattress, but are invested into accounts that pay either interest or some other form of payback. At some point a company can be said to have "too much cash" on hand. At this point management is supposed to find a way to invest these excess funds in a way that will yield a minimum return on the investment. Sometimes they will buy existing businesses, or might start new ones (like HKDL). Unless the coupon rate on the DLP bonds is very high (above market rates) it would actually be considered to be a bad idea to pay these off, the theory being that management should be able to make more money by investing these wisely compared to the interest savings on the bonds. Of course, these investments can backfire (as was the case with go.com). Now, mamangement could possibly make the case that if they paid off DLP's debt and invested heavily in parks that the payoff would be handsome. Apparently, however, they don't seem to believe that this will be the case.
Originally Posted By BrigmanMT 2 Eventually they will have to open a third park in paris (due to contractual agreements). I suspect that Disney would pay off the debt just as spending on the new venture started. A big expansion in the Studios and Disneyland would follow a couple of years after the opening to keep interest in the resort as a whole. Once this is done they will indeed start raking in the dough. By then it would be time to expand the empire again with another park somehwere on the planet, that way they can always keep that cash moving.
