Originally Posted By mstaft ^^^ Certainly didnt hurt TDS, however. Takes something to get 10M admissions at full price.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "Certainly didnt hurt TDS, however. Takes something to get 10M admissions at full price." Again, it's what they expect on the return on their investment vs what they actually get. OLC suspected that dropping that kind of money would pay off and it apparently has. And everyone knows that the Japanese parks are the kings of merchandise and food sales, which are major sources of theme park revenue. Building one of these parks is always a gamble. No one, not even Disney, has a crystal ball.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> The cost of capital is just too high and Imagineering seems to be be lacking the ability to create wonderful new attractions at a reasonable cost. << It's a joke to focus on dollars when there's a good possibility that some of the top decisionmakers at the DisCo (and, yep, I've said this a million times before) have been or are totally incapable of judging whether an idea or plan is good or not. I continue to believe DCA is a dud primarily because it was managed by people with bad taste or bad eyesight (or both), and until -- and only until -- I get contrary evidence that those responsible for DCA actually thought, Wow, this park is a piece of junk but we unfortunately don't (or didn't) have enough money to do it right, I'll theorize that economics (or "capital" or "costs") were the LEAST of all the problems behind DCA's mediocrity.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "I dont think its fair to blame Imagineering for the failures of late." I think they should share the responsibility along with the Parks and Resorts management. They certainly get the credit when things go well, then why not when thing go bad?
Originally Posted By SJHYM Because thats not the business model that Disney currently works under. Its like sending a custodial person into the park without a broom then getting mad then the trash isnt swept up.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt ^^So then, Imagineering can never be at fault. They have their hands tied because all of Disney's upper management is a nincompoop. Got it.
Originally Posted By SJHYM Thats a little reactionary. Of course Imagineering isnt perfect but your last statement is more correct than anything. Imagineering is a division in a company. And that company has been micromanaged for a long time. You should probably read D-troops Imagineering article. I was around Imagineering for awhile and most of what they report is accurate.
Originally Posted By SJHYM One more point. Creativity has to have a healthy environment to grow in. Pixar seems to be able to foster that well and most would say it shows in their products. When artistic decisions are made from the top then filtered down thru multitudes of finance people and managers why is anyone surprised that the result is what it is.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt ^^I agree for the most part, however comparing Pixar to Disney is really an apple and oranges situation. How many films do they produce a year compared to the sheer volume of films, TV shows, theme parks, shows, etc coming from Disney? Let's not forget that Imagineering has its own set of managers who oversee budgets and so forth for the division. These people must be held accountable at some level for the decisions that they make too. I know next to nothing about how Imagineering runs specifically, however it doesn't take an MBA to realize that there is a disconnect with the folks overseeing the design of the attractions and the overall objectives of the company when a simple little attraction like Pooh costs around $30 million.
Originally Posted By arstogas >>> Likewise, DLP has rarely lived up to its original projects, and even worse it has seldom made money.<<< Hans, you don't know what you're talking about. From the beginning, the PARK at least EXCEEDED attendance projections. It's never fallen below them, to my knowledge. And the budget for the park was exceeded by only a small percentage. They kept their costs close to what was planned. >>> There are probably at least a hundred different reasons why, but I think it’s pretty obvious that they overspent on both the park and the hotels.<<< No, there are not a hundred reasons why. There was a flawed business model here - to build six expensive hotels for a park located in such a densely populated area that vistors would have no compelling reason to stay and SPEND those expensive dollars overnight. Two BILLION dollars financed and accumulating interest, without being RECOUPED immediately, adds up quite quick. THAT'S where the DLP resort faltered. The PARK has always drawn in the hordes. You keep trying to wrangle a comparison to DCA, but from an informed point of view, the comparison simply isn't relevant at all.
Originally Posted By leemac As I've said before the notion that OLC only sell full price passes is nonsense. A lot of tickets are discounted and those numbers also include a lot of people who purchase discounted passes for after 3pm and the evening. Those can be deeply discounted. The majority of tickets sold at TDS are not 5500 yen per day.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "It's never fallen below them, to my knowledge." I do believe that shortly after the first year of operation the park's attendance numbers fell below the 10 million mark. "You keep trying to wrangle a comparison to DCA, but from an informed point of view, the comparison simply isn't relevant at all." Oh brother. I'm simply saying that building a park with all the traditional bells and whistles isn't a guarantee of success. DLP is a good example, even without the hotel factor. You and others put way too much weight on attendance figures ignoring the fact that guest spending is a huge factor, and DLP lags in this area. In the first year Euro Disney nearly met expectations for revenues and operating expenses of the DLP theme park. With no operating profit from the resort and hotels and higher than planned general and administrative costs it failed to meet the profit projection the first year. In the second year again revenues from the theme park reached the planned level but operating expenses for this exceeded plans so that the operating profit was below expectations. It is true that the hotels and increasing operating costs are continuing to drag the resort's profits down, but note that the DLP theme park is doing better - mostly because of new pricier ticket media and increased spending - NOT because of increased attendance: <a href="http://www.talkdisney.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-22791.html" target="_blank">http://www.talkdisney.com/foru ms/archive/index.php/t-22791.html</a> What does this mean for the DCA? I think that there is a similar lesson to be learned by both in terms of financial planning at the outset and how does a company establish a return on its investment while maintaining a reasonable degree of integrity. What is happening with Disney in France is a very sad situation for everyone involved. I would not be the least bit surprised if Euro Disney filed bankruptcy again in the near future.
Originally Posted By arstogas >>>I do believe that shortly after the first year of operation the park's attendance numbers fell below the 10 million mark.<<< The mark was not 10 million. Don't know where you got that figure as a goal, if that's what you're contending. Attendance goals for the first few years were set at 8.5 million, and they exceeded that right off the start and continued to do so, until now. And not really sure why, but you're completely making this stuff up: >>>In the first year Euro Disney nearly met expectations for revenues and operating expenses of the DLP theme park.<<<
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt “The mark was not 10 million.†I never said it was. I said that attendance fell BELOW 10 million shortly after the park opened. The park was originally project to attract 11 million visitors in its first year. The peak was in 2002 when the number hit 13.5 million, and I believe that there were years where this figure fell well below the original numbers. You might want to read this old article written about the park just a few months after it opened: <a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/1992/05/13/disn.php" target="_blank">http://www.iht.com/articles/19 92/05/13/disn.php</a> "And not really sure why, but you're completely making this stuff up" Oh please. If you are going to accuse me of making stuff up I suggest you back up your unsubstantiated claims about me with some evidence to support what you say. If I am wrong about something I have no problem owning up to my errors. Now, enough about DLP. On with the ususal DCA debate...
Originally Posted By arstogas The internal projection for the first year was indeed 8.5 million. I don't know where this 11 million figure came from, but it didn't come from any stateside management. Aside from that, this article was published one month after the park opened... hardly a fair indictment of the park's achievements one year (or several) later.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney I think the problem with DLP was simply that they OVERestimated the attendance. They were expecting 60,000 people a day the first year and my jaw dropped that they litterally wanted 500,000 thousand people on opening day. I mean, that MUST be a typo somewhere. Why in the hell would you want half a million people in the place, any place, at one time?? Who thought this many people would show up on the first day?? That's more people than in most of the cities in France. Of course, ironically, if Disney didn't overestimate the attendance and the ridiculous number of hotels, we probably wouldn't have that beautiful park today as evident by all the crappy parks (not counting AK and TDS ) that been coming down the line since. I also wonder if HKDL doesn't achive it's numbers (since it's VERY modest to begin with) will Disney consider building parks internationally worth it anymore? Yes, TDL and TDS are big sucess stories, but as we all know, they don't make any real money off of them. Maybe it's only Japan where Disney parks can thrive they way they expect them to? Seriously, TDR is really the only big sucess story to come out in a long, long time and I know it's KILLING them that the parks that are making the most money, they don't have any real part of lol. BUT, maybe HKDL will be big too, who knows?
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "The internal projection for the first year was indeed 8.5 million. I don't know where this 11 million figure came from, but it didn't come from any stateside management." And I question the 8 million figure. That number doesn't stand to reason given the size, scope and costs involved in building the place. "my jaw dropped that they litterally wanted 500,000 thousand people on opening day." I think it's a typo. My assumption is that they meant 50,000.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "Seriously, TDR is really the only big sucess story to come out in a long, long time and I know it's KILLING them that the parks that are making the most money, they don't have any real part of lol." Well, they earn do earn a sizeable royalty from those parks therefore there is some "icing on the cake", so to speak, for the use of the Disney brand in Japan. Eventually, though, all good things come to an end. TDL is currently experiencing a rather prolonged slowdown: <a href="http://www.jtcent.com/extras/news/news_050517.html" target="_blank">http://www.jtcent.com/extras/n ews/news_050517.html</a>
Originally Posted By arstogas >>>And I question the 8 million figure. That number doesn't stand to reason given the size, scope and costs involved in building the place.<<< Again, that reasoning doesn't really jibe with their plans. When you consider the original projections for Tokyo Disneyland, the figure of 8.5 million makes an awful lot of sense. Everyone stateside knew it was a low figure. They went with it confidently, fully expecting to exceed it. This 11 million figure - that was never what was expected by Disney (in the states, anyway). Plenty of people within WDI you could talk to about that.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<Well, they earn do earn a sizeable royalty from those parks therefore there is some "icing on the cake", so to speak, for the use of the Disney brand in Japan. Eventually, though, all good things come to an end. TDL is currently experiencing a rather prolonged slowdown>> Oh no, trust me, I'm well aware of TDR's downturn . Yeah, unfortunately it's seeing a downturn in revenue and attendance year and like that report said, will probably be more gradual as time wears on. BUUUT, it still attracted nearly 25 million people last year and DOUBLED the attendance of DLPR according to the report, so trust me, even though it's not creating the massive spending like before, it's doing quite well for itself and obviously still one of the most visited theme parks in the world. It also comes back to my main point too, if THIS park starts to have a major drop off in visitors in the next coming years, what hope does most of the lesser parks Disney has such as Paris and Hong Kong? TDR is definitely the top resort money wise--after the behemoth WDW obviously since it's about 5 times its size and if that park starts to languish internationally, how can Disney sustain the others, especially since they seem to be in the business of getting one opened every 3 years somewhere in the world now?
