Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "DCA relies on being packaged onto folks visiting to Disneyland, the other parks have to get their own attendance, and don't for the most part rely on multi-park attendance." Well of course! They are using a similar model as the other Disney resorts worldwide. Duh.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "Not being a shareholder, I have no idea what is on their finacials. But to say that discounting alone has cost them revenue is probably a gross inaccuracy." It is. The truth is that DLR did very little discounting this year, raised admissions, resulting in increased guest spending. Naturally some of these gains were offset by increased marketing costs for the 5Oth. Read the year-end financial analysis here (scroll down to Parks and Resorts): <a href="http://corporate.disney.go.com/investors/quarterly_earnings/2005_q4.pdf" target="_blank">http://corporate.disney.go.com /investors/quarterly_earnings/2005_q4.pdf</a>
Originally Posted By Darkbeer The DLR did discount in 2005. January thru April you had the 3 to 5 day ParkHoppers at an additional dicount, withe Adults at the Kids price, or Kids Free with the Advance Purchase Adult price. Plus you had the big SoCal push, withthe PAy for Disenyland, get DCA for FREE tickets being sold, both at the parks, and a new tie-in with VONS, with the Ticket Gift Card program being started, which allows ticket stock to be placed in the store without fear of being stolen. Then starting in May for the rest of 2005, you still had the Advance Purchase 3 day or More ParkHoppers, both stand alone, or as part of packages. Also, you had a minor SoCal special of $5 off a One Day ParkHopper. Plus some AP specials. Then of course, the regular set of employee, school and military groups. Plus special programs like Magic Music Days, Dance Group tickets, etc. Which provide a good sized discount for the group, and the temptation of performing inside theparks as the carrot to sell the tickets. What is the average price someone pays to enter DCA for a day? Supposely AP holders make up over half the attendance, so how much? Maybe $10 or so. Multi-Day ParkHoppers.... with advance purchase, about $40 a day for adults. Let's say they spend one full day at DCA. The Pay for Disneyland, get DCA for FREE! tickets, at a Cast Plast, it was mentioned that $14 was credited to DCA< and the rest to DL, but that was last year. So less than $20. Then you have to take into consideration all the comp tickets, CM signins, etc.... And then add in the full price tickets, which based on what I know, is VERY few. So you have an average price of what, about $20, so about the same price as what Knott's and Six Flags Magic Mountain offered the SoCal's (about $25). USH offered SoCal discounts that made the one day price $35. All the other parks also have AP's, but also sell a lot more full price tickets. Heck, USH can get over $120 from many guests in VIP tours, or $90 with the summer Front of the Line pass. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that DCA has the lowest average per day price of any SoCal park.
Originally Posted By Blacksheep Uncle another thing I continue to find funny (in a sad sorta way) is the way some people continue to trot out that "7 million" figure and other stuff from 2001, like it was handed down by God himself...while at the same time ridiculing virtually everything else ever said by that (thankfully gone) management "team"...
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> The DLR did discount in 2005. << For some reason -- or based on a vague memory of reading an item awhile back about the DisCo revising their sales tactics -- I too believed the previous 12 months had seen the DisCo taking a firm no-discount stand on DCA, where they wanted visitors to either pay in full or keep out. I've lost track of all the various promotionals for DCA that I actually felt the DisCo had finally grown so weary of them that they they chunked them altogether starting sometime during the preceeding 12 months. Now that I think of it, I guess what really confused me was that I transposed DCA's promotional ticket policy with the elimination of things like the ABC Primetime or Soap Opera days, or the summer X Games events.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< IMHO, there is a BIG diffeence between pricing an individual park, and riding on the park next door coat tails to drive attendance. People choose Knott's, USH, SFMM, ec. because they want to go there, but DCA's attendance is driven by folks who are given DCA at no extra charge. >>> This disparity between DCA and DL has been in existance since nearly the beginning. Remember all of the extra DCA-only Main Gate passes given to CMs the first summer (this is important because industry standard is to count free passes given to CMs as admissions)? Remember the large SoCal resident discount given the first summer to DCA-only single-day tickets? This pattern continues right up through this year with the "Buy DL, get DCA free" promotion. Since we've stirred up the "DCA sucks and has terrible attendance problems" once again, now is a good time for me to share what I just recently realized about my first DCA visit back in the summer of 2001: I went with a group of 6-8 people. 3 of us were DL regulars, having been dozens of times. The rest were newbies (at least to Anaheim, and one had never been to a Disney park). We took advantage of a SoCal-only promotion that offered something like $30 admission to DCA. The most important point to mention is that the 3 DL regulars were all very excited to go to the "new" park at Anaheim. It seemed so foreign to us (in a good way) to actually have two parks in Anaheim. None of us participated in online Disney forums at the time, and none had read any bad press about DCA. In short, we all went in with a great mental attitude and expectation, with not a hint of pre-conceived negativity. Within 2 hours, we were so dismayed that one of us stormed into Guest Relations and demanded admission to DL, which by the way we were granted for the entire group at no additional cost, even though we had deeply discounted DCA-only tickets. This personal experience of mine more than anything else tells me that my current view on DCA (and apparently that of the park-going public overall) is correct. Even though we might very well have ended the day leaving with a so-so experience, there were four things under Disney's control that disappointed us enough to cause us to effectively want our money back, with the last one being the funniest. First, Screamin' was closed. Second, GRR was closed. Third, I was not able to go on the Orange Stinger because of the (at the time) weight restriction. But the straw that broke the camel's back: SuperStar Limo. That honker was so bad that we proceeded directly from its exit to Guest Relations. Most of us were just disappointed (and a bit embarassed it was so bad), but one of us blew their top so to speak. All was well once we "came home" to DL across the way. The member of our party that had never been to a DL park saw the difference immediately. Now, that day is just something funny to look back on. Of course, the SSL situation is especially entertaining, considering all that I know now about that attraction and how us going into it with an open mind and knowing absolutely nothing about DCA would have such a reaction. I think I've told most of this story on LP before, but the specific connection between SSL and the storming of Guest Relations, and the unexplained permanent closure of SSL less than a year after opening in the absense of any safety or engineering reason, wasn't made in my mind until very recently. Looking back at it, it's quite obvious that they felt that it was better to just keep SSL closed than to operate it as an (unpopular) attraction. Contrast this with Pooh across the way: To quote WorldDisney, that thing is definately a "turkey," but I can't imagine them deciding to close it because of extremely negative guest reactions: at best, it's just something that didn't work out quite as they had hoped, and guests that are disappointed will just make a mental note to not ride it again. Getting back to attendance figures, one thing that I find especially interesting and encouraging about DL's attendance increase is that this happened during a year that saw a substantial increase in the price of many types of Annual Passports. Keep up the good work, Matt and team!
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>at best, it's just something that didn't work out quite as they had hoped, and guests that are disappointed will just make a mental note to not ride it again.<< And not to change the subject ... I wonder if "Pooh's" days are numbered. That it will not operate into the Teens.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<another thing I continue to find funny (in a sad sorta way) is the way some people continue to trot out that "7 million">> It really is kind of amusing, isn't it? The same people who think the Disney executives had their heads up their butts about everything else concerning DCA still take these same executives’ attendance projections as Holy Grail.
Originally Posted By karlg Let's get real folks. DCA's increase this year is from the spill-over from DL's 50th and not due to people warming up to DCA. It looks like the management is "getting it" that by adding attractions and good shows that it drives attendance up in a better way than discounts for locals. They also seem to get that DCA is a mess. My own personal experience taking my 12 year old son in mid November was a classic example of DCA's problems: My son had not been to DL since 1997 and was not much of a "thrill seeker" so this was his first time for IJ, SpaceM, SplashM, and ThunderM (he was too scared to go on these type of attractions at WDW in 2001). He could go on just about everything at DL including all the mountains and had a great time. Because of 50th and holiday event we when to DL first (on Thursday) before the crowds became too unbearable to go on attractions. Then we went to DCA. The only attractions he would go on were Grizzly Peaks (which he liked the most of anything at DCA and was the only attraction at DCA he wanted to on again), Soaring (which he didn't like), Muppets, Turtle Tallk with Crush (which he didn't think much of), Aladdin (ok, but not worth going back to), and the BBP Parade (which he enjoyed). TT and Screaming were too scary for him. He hated Bug's Life at AK and never wanted to see it again. The rest of Paradise Pier was too junky and/or scary. The Bug's Life Fair was too kiddieland. And had been on a mad mouse once and hatted it so forget Mulholand Madness. So out of a 4 day visit to DLR, DCA was "worth" about 2 hours for him and only Grizzle Peaks had and repeatability for him. He was forced to spend another hour or so at DCA while others in our part rode TT and Screaming. It does make me wonder how many "theme park hours" one spends at DCA versus DL and not just "clicks of the turnstile." It seems to me that most people just cherry pick a few attractions at DCA and then head over to DL. With DL attendance up 8%, it it not surprising that DCA went up a little bit.
Originally Posted By tangaroa >The same people who think the Disney >executives had their heads up their butts >about everything else concerning DCA still >take these same executives’ attendance >projections as Holy Grail. If Pressler said the Matterhorn was 147 feet tall, I'd believe him. That fact wouldn't change just because someone new came in. The fact is that Disney spent the money to build a park that would attract 7 million people, and that park doesn't. It's a simple fact. To this day I can't understand why people are so eager to throw facts out the window to defend a theme park. It's risen to the point of a religion.
Originally Posted By tangaroa >A customer doesn't need to spend 'big' in >order for them to make more of a profit >than if they didn't offer the discount at >all. Plus, as you said, if some people >weren't willing to come without a >discount, it's still in the plus column... > it's better to get then in at a discount >than not at all. Not necessarily. >Not being a shareholder, I have no idea >what is on their finacials. But to say >that discounting alone has cost them >revenue is probably a gross inaccuracy. Disney has attributed declining revenues from DLR on increases in higher volume. There are simply more people going to DL, who are paying less money to get in. When employee benefit and insurance costs went up, that only exasperated the situation. In short - discounting hurts the bottom line, and is only done when it is absolutely necessary. I have to wonder how many people came into the park in 1995 via discounted admission (APs, Multiday Tickets) compared to the number that come in today. Simply guessing on the placement of ticket options on the marquee, I would guess that the One Day park pass has gone from the most popular to the least popular form of admission in the last 10 years.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss I don't think anyone here believes DCA is fine. But changes to fix problems won't come overnight. So no one is defending DCA, just saying that it's pointless to keep going over old news.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> It's risen to the point of a religion. << Or a variation of office politics---and almost everyone here isn't even employed by the DisCo! That means if a person is a brown noser here, imagine how complicated things really would be if our monthly salary came from the DisCo and our boss was Eisner, Pressler or Braverman. In some ways it's suprising that DCA didn't end up an even more mishandled, misdirected development.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss >A customer doesn't need to spend 'big' in >order for them to make more of a profit >than if they didn't offer the discount at <<>all. Plus, as you said, if some people >weren't willing to come without a >discount, it's still in the plus column... > it's better to get then in at a discount >than not at all. Not necessarily.>> Please cite an example of how it wouldn't be better to stlll make a profit. <<I would guess that the One Day park pass has gone from the most popular to the least popular form of admission in the last 10 years.>> Wasn't that the plan all along? If they wanted to sell only one day passes, what was the purpose of the resort expansion?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <In short - discounting hurts the bottom line>> Not necessarily. Why do stores run sales all of the time? Because they know that the increased volume of sales will more than cover the decreased prices.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> Why do stores run sales all of the time? << Any business obviously would love to charge, for example, $30.00 for an item and be able to sell it at the asking price. Prices sometimes will be dropped not because of a lack of demand but because the business wants to grab a larger piece of the market and push its competitors out of the picture. I know that continuous sales tatics of *certain* large retailers (mainly the ones priced between the level of, say, a Wal-mart or Target and the luxury level) coincides with their finding their share of the market being eroded away by new, heavy competition. In other words, they want -- they need -- more customers, period. When it comes to DCA, I guess the big question is whether its ticketing policies reflect more of a Target/Costco tactic or more of an old-line department-store (or so-called dinosaur) tactic.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "The DLR did discount in 2005" Darkbeer, it's obvious that you can read. Therefore, what part of my statement, "The truth is that DLR did very little discounting this year, raised admissions, resulting in increased guest spending", did you not understand? The point you seems to purposely skip over is that for the most part visitors paid more to enter Disney's Anaheim parks this year than last. It's right there in the financial report.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Simply guessing on the placement of ticket options on the marquee, I would guess that the One Day park pass has gone from the most popular to the least popular form of admission in the last 10 years. >>> On that particular issue, I have a different take. I think they deliberately placed the one-day single-park ticket at the bottom to make it more of a "fine print" item. There are certainly at least some people that read the menu and stop at "one day two-park pass" and assume that's the one to get for a 1-day visit.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "Disney has attributed declining revenues from DLR on increases in higher volume. There are simply more people going to DL, who are paying less money to get in." What in the world are you talking about? This is not the case. Income and revenues are UP at DLR, and Disney is attributing it directly to INCREASES in ticket pricing.
Originally Posted By socalkdg WDW has had massive discounting this year, both in admissions and in rooms. They revised their pricing scheme to keep people longer at the the resort. For $200 you can get 8 days of parks, or $20 a day. Now that we have settled the question of which U.S. parks discount (the answer is all of them in one form or another) lets move to the next one: How did DCA achieve a 3% increase when the DCA naysayers were harping every week that DCA was only getting 10,000 people on the weekends. Based on the many readings done here and elsewhere I was expecting a 10-15% drop in attendance since Screamin was down, everyone was going to DL, no lines, look at this picture, no crowds, etc. I guess the "sky is falling we hate DCA crowd" was wrong. Might have to watch you guys a little closer next year and not believe everything you guys spin(I mean say). The most important stat is really the total amount of people at the DLR. So what did we have in 2000, before DCA was open. We had 13.9 million. In 2003 DLR was at 18 million. Last year, for the first time ever, DLR broke the 20 million mark. It was at 20.3 million. So DLR has increased 46% with the opening of DCA. For comparison, TDL was at 16.5 million before TDS opened. For year 2005, its up to 25 million, a 51% increase. Interesting that for a fraction of the cost, DCA has almost accomplished the same thing for DL that TDS accomplished for TDR. Interesting, to say the least. Oh, enough spinning these % increases or attendance per day. There is a reason a park moves up 20% in a year, it was doing crap the previous year. There is a reason a park isn't open every day, not enough people show up those days to make it worthwhile to open the park. How many people actually go on a Wednesday in the middle of Jan. to DCA or DL, not many when you compare it to their normal average. Lastly, Disney makes more money from guest spending and their hotels then they do from park admissions. Keeping people staying longer, for whatever reason means more dollars in their pockets. To the dad of the 12 year old, I feel bad for you. My 4 year old daughter has been on every ride except Maliboomer or Screamin and loves them all(ok, she is so so with TOT). The mouse rollercoaster is her favorite ride at the DLR(maybe a tossup with Splash), go figure. My 10 year old nephew loves the park as well. Sorry your son doesn't like it.
