Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<With such extreme discounting it should be no surprise that many of these parks are performing poorly even with increases in attendance. In fact Paramount Parks' parent Viacom recently announced that it is considering putting its parks up for sale.>> One of the things that separates Disney from all the others is their masterful synergy and marketing. No one else has virtually trademarked the word 'magic,' and, on a national level, caused people to LOVE their products. You can ask anyone what Disney stands for, and they will say Mickey Mouse, Disneyland, etc. Ask the same people about Paramount or Universal, and you'll be pressed to come up with any kind of a concensus.
Originally Posted By alexbook This was posted a while back: "I think we here on LP probably overestimate how many AP's there are relative to daytrippers because there are so many AP's on LP. But we're the Disney fanatics. Most people aren't as fanatic as we are, and they visit once a year, or (gasp!) once every two or three years." Does anyone have any actual numbers on repeat customers? My impression, as someone who works next door to (but not in) Disneyland, is that a very large percentage of our guests have been looking forward to coming to Disneyland for years. You'd be amazed at how many people are making their first visits since DCA, DTD, and GCH were built. And many guests are from overseas and are making a "once-in-a-lifetime" visit.
Originally Posted By planodisney "The bottom line is spend money on DCA or give park goers some discounts". Arent they doing both? Also, Darkbeer, what does the new vons promo. have to do with last years increase in attendance while offering less discounts? The argument wasnt about if TDA still needed to offer discounts during slow times. Did DCA increase it's attendance while offering less discounts or not?
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt Apparently it did. According to the year end financial analysis from Disney the DLR parks had increases with overall higher admission fees than the previous year.
Originally Posted By 9oldmen >>IOA is a far larger (in just about every way) park than DCA, << You got that right! >>By now everyone should know that attendance is only one small measure of any park's success... visitor spending patterns are a huge part of a theme park's operating revenue (or lack thereof). Determining financial success isn't just as simple as saying park A got more visitors than park B.<< I know. And I'm going to argue that IOA not only gets higher attendance than DCA, up until this last year, but its guests also spend more. My defense is that they don't have the advantage of a "2fer" offer with the 2nd most visited theme park in the country, and that 2nd most visited park is also: not 100 yards away, run by the same company, and its annual passholders don't get free admission automatically. Also, restaurants like "Cofisco's" and "Mythos" remain open, while we know what happened with Hollywood and Dine and Soap Opera Bistro. Either Universal/Blackstone/Whoever has not been smart enough to close those places and leave them abandoned or turned into kiddie shows, or they are making money. Guests must be spending money. I'm not saying they're not in trouble, but I don't buy that guests aren't spending as much as DCA's guests. Of course I have no way to prove this, but I think the proof is right there.
Originally Posted By MisterToad ^^^^^^^^^^^ So are APs getting Epcot, MGM and AK for free when they purchase a WDW AP?
Originally Posted By woody "Arent they doing both?" In the context of our discussion, NO. The 2Fer was offered for DCA in the summer before all the new ride/attraction additions. If the 2Fers are offered in the off-season, it would be a different discussion. Last summer, they didn't offer the 2Fer for DCA. The attendance held up for DCA. This means they spend money on the park and it worked. I wonder if attendance at DCA will hold next summer? The new Monsters attraction should keep DCA well-attended. At least we would hope so.
Originally Posted By 9oldmen >>^^^^^^^^^^^ So are APs getting Epcot, MGM and AK for free when they purchase a WDW AP?<< It looks like they are, which might explain why those parks are at numbers 3,4 and 5 on the "Top 10" list. So what's DCA's excuse for not being higher up on the list?
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>A few days away from the return of the "Pay for Disneyland, get DCA for FREE!" ticket... Check the new VONS ad coming out Tuesday.....<< Oh ... and here I thought Deeseeay "didn't need" 2fr1s.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "... but its guests also spend more.... Of course I have no way to prove this, but I think the proof is right there." No point in arguing with this since you present no concrete evidence to support your position other than your opinion. That's all fine and dandy, but your assertion would be far more compelling if you would present some real facts and figures.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster If Tower of Terror couldn't cause a spike in DCA's attendance then there's no chance Monsters will. However, this "placemaking" idea just might make the park a place people want to spend a whole day in. And that's all the difference in the world.
Originally Posted By 9oldmen "... but its guests also spend more.... Of course I have no way to prove this, but I think the proof is right there." >>No point in arguing with this since you present no concrete evidence to support your position other than your opinion. That's all fine and dandy, but your assertion would be far more compelling if you would present some real facts and figures.<< Yes, I really like IOA and wish something on that level had opened 100 yards to the south of Disneyland. I don't have facts of figures, but I do know that those sit down restaurants at IOA that I cited MUST be making money, while at DCA, the old "H&D" and "Soap Opera Bistro" venues are now generating NO money. I DON'T think that was part of the plan. Part of the problem may be that Disney just miscalculated as to the number of food venues to put into their new park. If that's the case then fine, Universal, despite not having half a century of experience running theme parks, seem to have done a better job of estimating the amount and type of food facilities to put in their park. And I'm sorry, but you KNOW that more of the guest entering IOA are actually paying to get in. I can't prove I'm right, but can you prove me wrong?
Originally Posted By Captain Jack Sparrow I'm reading Darkbeer's post on the So Cal 2fer for DCA and the posts here regarding the 2fer for DCA for So Cal residents. My question is ....is this not smart? Discounting is in every other park,some parks giving away a year for free for anyone. But,giving a discount to So Cal residents is intended to get So Cal's into DCA. How many So Cal's stay in Disney Hotels? I'm guessing not very many,so visitors from everywhere else are filling those hotels up.Great....Disney has filled it's hotels with out of towners and wants to give a discount to locals (So Cal residents)...fantastic,maybe some will come and experience DCA(spend some money) and enjoy the park! I mean the park is changing and the locals need maybe a little more encouragement to come visit DCA after all the negatives they have read or heard about. I'm sure some will be pleasantly surprised. Let's not under estimate why Disney discounts to locals....spin away!
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Kevin Yee had this to say today over at MiceAge... <a href="http://www.miceage.com/kevinyee/ky010306a.htm" target="_blank">http://www.miceage.com/kevinye e/ky010306a.htm</a> >>A few things leap out at me. First, California Adventure (DCA) looks percentage-wise like it's had a great year, but if you look at the actual figures, they only had 200,000 additional turnstile-clicks than the prior year... and the attendance has been through the roof at nearby Disneyland, which added 1,100,000 additional visits over the prior year. Thus, you've got a lot of additional bodies visiting Disneyland, but most of them do not translate into additional visits to DCA. A cynic might wonder if some of those visits that DCA *did* get were in fact caused by Disneyland closing its gate due to hitting maximum capacity, which happened more than a few times in 2005. And Disneyland closed entirely for a day to get ready for its media event, shunting all visitors over to DCA for the day.<<
Originally Posted By Captain Jack Sparrow I'm going on the record right now to say DCA will have more people go thru the turnstiles than Disneyland AND get DCA's overflow... for DCA's 50th!!
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<I don't have facts of figures, but I do know that those sit down restaurants at IOA that I cited MUST be making money,>> They might be making money as stand-alone ventures, but are USO and IOA as a whole making money? <<while at DCA, the old "H&D" and "Soap Opera Bistro" venues are now generating NO money. I DON'T think that was part of the plan.>> Duh. <<Part of the problem may be that Disney just miscalculated as to the number of food venues to put into their new park.>> There were miscalculations about DCA, but even though it's not performing up it's original expections, the entire DLR is benefitting from having DCA and DtD. <<Universal, despite not having half a century of experience running theme parks, seem to have done a better job of estimating the amount and type of food facilities to put in their park.>> How many owners has USO and IOA had? Isn't it like four? <<you KNOW that more of the guest entering IOA are actually paying to get in. I can't prove I'm right, but can you prove me wrong?>> DL/DCA is doing better than USO/IOA. End of story.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "And I'm sorry, but you KNOW that more of the guest entering IOA are actually paying to get in. I can't prove I'm right, but can you prove me wrong?" You make some valid points, but the real question is how much profit does one make over the other? If, as you claim, guest spending is higher at IOA does that mean that IOA is turning a higher profit? No, not necessarily. How do IOA's operating expenses impact the park's operating income compared to DCA? These are the important questions that no one here has the answers to. All we can do is speculate, and for the most part speculation on these boards tends to fall on side of individual bias rather than real facts.
Originally Posted By 9oldmen >>You make some valid points, but the real question is how much profit does one make over the other? If, as you claim, guest spending is higher at IOA does that mean that IOA is turning a higher profit? No, not necessarily. How do IOA's operating expenses impact the park's operating income compared to DCA? These are the important questions that no one here has the answers to<< So a statement like: >>DL/DCA is doing better than USO/IOA. End of story.<< Doesn't really have any validity either. The above will only be proven true if USO/IOA closes down. They haven't, and as I pointed out DCA and IOA both remain open, but in the case of IOA, more OF the original park remains open.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<So a statement like: >>DL/DCA is doing better than USO/IOA. End of story.<< Doesn't really have any validity either. The above will only be proven true if USO/IOA closes down.>> DLR: 20 million USF/IOA: 12 million That's a significant difference, enough to say that Disney is doing it better.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "The above will only be proven true if USO/IOA closes down." Six Flags has amassed around $2.3 BILLION in debt, yet they've closed only one U.S. park so far. How could this happen? Does that mean that the company and its parks are performing well? What do you think 9oldmen?
