Originally Posted By WorldDisney And dude, you don't have to 'hear' or see any of this stuff. Just DON'T click on lol!!!! There are 1,000+ threads happening all over LP you can give your time to and just ignore all the 'silly' ones. Why is that SO hard if you hate it SO much .
Originally Posted By Mr X WD...say it with me...DCA sucks! (but not as bad as Hong Kong Disneyland though!) Feel better now? I know *I* do!
Originally Posted By jonvn "For somebody so interested in, as you say logical argument, you seem to be a very angry man." I'm not an angry man. I am tired of the same garbage being said over and over again, after having it been shown to be false. Then it gets brought up again. "if some people wish to espouse a viewpoint slightly off a few degrees " No. That's not the point. The point is that people are flat out lying. This world disney person, she says DCA SUCKS, that's her opinion, that's fine. She isn't trying to prove it by manufacturing evidence. I don't care if someone likes the place or not. I do care about being lied to. You should too, because you are also being lied to. "you want to be the grammer/subject/truth police " Of course not. However, I am not going to sit here, and let untruth be disseminated without strongly objecting. "meeting hall filled with people who just want to hang out and have fun" Then people need to stop with the fabrications that they have been engaging in. If people want to discuss stuff, then discuss it. They don't have to try and prove their opinion is the correct one via dishonesty. "Jonvn, you bit AGAIN!!!" What I did was try to answer your post. If you don't want answers to your posts, what is the point of you making them? Just so we can hear your wondrous concepts? "we ALL know where Darkbeer stand" In this latest round of whatever it is he is attempting to do, he brought out some information of which I know the source. Instead of trying to present it truthfully, he cut it out of context to try to prove his opinion. I don't think it's appropriate to let him get away with this behavior. Have your opinion, but don't force it on me, or try to show you have information you don't that supposedly proves your opinion, because it's simply not true. I don't want to argue about the same stuff discussed several years ago. The thing is that certain people had their ideas at that time and did not do well with them. They continue to bring them up, in an effort to get these discredited ideas accepted. They have a good idea. By continuing to repeat the same mendacious comments, most people will certainly tire of answering the lies, and the lies take on an aura of truth simply by the constant repetition and the lack of being responded to. If they weren't brought up, they wouldn't be discussed. You want to talk to someone about this discussion? Talk to the people who keep starting it, and bringing up false statements. "There are 1,000+ threads" I'm not interested in 1000+ threads. If you are, then perhaps you could spend your time there. Since you are complaining about me talking to you, then I suggest you don't, if that is your preference.
Originally Posted By jonvn Anyway, I'm sorry if I am coming across as angry, but it's just that after being told things like "Disney has documented this" and then when asked where this is, we get quotes of the same guy making the same claims from posts earlier in the year, or we get some guy cutting to ribbons a powerpoint presentation to create a false impression of a document that was little more than a post project discussion of pros and cons. If this is personal, sorry. But the thing is I take being lied to by people like this personally. I am supposed to be gullible and stupid and simply accept these statements because someone declares them to be facts? I don't think so.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I agree with Jon in that there is a lot of exaggerating and flat out lying that takes place here in regards to DCA. His viewpoint seems to be one of the most balanced and objective around here. Rather than trying to be right, he’s one of the few posters that applies a measure of logic and reason to the debate. In his attempt to extract the truth, it has become even clearer just how little the critics really know about the inner workings of Disney, and the definitive answer on how big of a success or failure DCA has been.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney LOL you guys are killing me ;D. Jonvn, I LOVE you talking me dude, its the irony of the whole situtation I find completely funny, that's all. Man, the roses are sooo sweet now. I can almost taste them now. Hello Mr. X, yes DCA SUCKS LOL!!!!! But, when the bulldozers come, I think a lot less so . Keep hoisting the bait DB, I think in when I wake up again, I expect another 20 posts. Maybe you should just post these articles separately in different threads and you will got a lot more traffic. Just a thought ;D. Night DCA debaters, we all live to fight it out another day!!!!
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<Just so we can hear your wondrous concepts?>> ...Yes!!! I thought that's why people came here? Wow, let down. Night kids.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<jon-are you this passionate about all your interests or is it just Disney? If so, why? For somebody so interested in, as you say logical argument, you seem to be a very angry man. I stated elsewhere I had come to admire(something I imagine you neither court nor could care less about)your debating skills. Reading this thread, however, I have seen you become quite personal and display quite an attacking nature. I just wonder why, if some people wish to espouse a viewpoint slightly off a few degrees from established, hard evidence why this bothers you to the point of coming across as an apopleptic "dear editor" contributor. The very nature of your tone has threatened to derail the point you are making. It almost seems like you want to be the grammer/subject/truth police in a meeting hall filled with people who just want to hang out and have fun discussing their mutual interest.>> I've pulled myself out of these threads again because I kind of feel what you are saying above, although not to single out Jon ... I happen to feel he's one of the more intelligent, articulate and, just plain interesting, spirits here. I just feel that there's nothing new that seems to be coming out of it again. For instance, I know many of the personalities who were running TDA back in the 1999-2003 period and what their mindsets were ... what they expected of DCA ... what their motivations were. I've stated some of that on recent threads here. But there's no way of 'proving it.' Either people believe me or they don't ... and some people are going to be predisposed to believe one thing or another. I thought these discussions had been a vast improvemnt over the muck that was wallowed in for years, but now it seems to be the same old, same old. When you start discussing definitions ... start posting the same old links (c'mon Darkbeer, where is George K's infamous arrogant LA Times quote about disappointed guests having to 'settle' for DL across the esplenade because DCA is at capacity almost every day?) ... start attacking the agendas of Disney webmasters ... start ripping plans for DCA that haven't even been decided upon etc`... it just doesn't seem to serve any purpose. I could write a book (and maybe I will one day) about how and why DCA went wrong ... but I could also write a book about why and how DL will be in Anaheim in 50 years (assuming the evildoers don't destroy the planet first) largely because DCA was built to begin with. But people want to believe whatever it is they have convinced themselves of ... and there is no more polarizing subject on Disney discussion boards than the 'DCA sucks vs. Oh, no it doesn't' debate ... there are very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very few people who I believe can rationally see, appreciate and extract the truth from both sides and discuss it ... which is why I guess I'm going to sit on the sidelines again unless I see something that I feel absolutely needs to be said. Thanks for reading.
Originally Posted By jonvn "its the irony of the whole situtation" There is no irony here, only that what you are setting up for yourself. I already explained why I respond to some of these posts. "I just feel that there's nothing new that seems to be coming out of it again." Of course nothing new is coming out of this. I just don't want people to get away with this junk. "very few people who I believe can rationally see, appreciate and extract the truth from both sides and discuss it" I would like to be able to do that, that is the point. But when we have people quoting material from over half a decade ago, then others chiming in with their so called proclamations by Disney which end up being vapor, it's rather hard to do.
Originally Posted By dshyates It kinda has to be from a half decade ago if what your trying to point out is the mindset of what appear to be some very arrogant folks a half decade ago. Duh. How is it relevant. Well, Disney is about to rip out and/or reface extremely large chunks of a very young park at a cost of $1.2 billion. The discussion, I do believe, is, Why?
Originally Posted By jonvn Well, no. First, it's been talked about for 6 years or more now. Second, you don't know what their mindset was, so give it a rest. You don't read minds, and no one else does either. Third, why they are investing this much into the park is up for debate, as you say. This has already been discussed a bit, and it really has nothing to do with this thread.
Originally Posted By 2001DLFan <<berol: The problem with public statements is we don't know how much of it was trying to create demand and how much of it they genuinely, truly expected. There's no point in publicizing something that doesn't need it which makes me suspect they knew DCA needed it. "Come to Disneyland and get locked out DCA!" wha?! Irregardless, hey! ho! let's go!>> Generally, when estimating projected attendance, they want to provide high enough numbers to show confidence, low enough to exceed any lowball estimates, and yet conservative enough that they can hype when those numbers are exceeded. Unfortunately, DCA failed to achieve any of those situations.
Originally Posted By 2001DLFan <<Darkbeer: Here is a photo of the early 2007 tickets, which clearly state "Purchase a Disneyland Park ticket for one day and visit Disney's California Adventure Park on another day for FREE!" <a href="http://darkbeer.smugmug.com/ga" target="_blank">http://darkbeer.smugmug.com/ga</a> llery/2348468/1/122919197/Large>> How do you suppose they break down that ticket price between the parks? Do they actually just attribute it all to Disneyland and not give any to DCA? Or do they give a portion to Disneyland and use a portion to subsidize DCA? In that cast DCA wouldn’t be free. Would they count the use of the ticket at DCA as an admission but not attribute any financial value to it?
Originally Posted By 2001DLFan <<Hans Reinhardt: I agree with Jon in that there is a lot of exaggerating and flat out lying that takes place here in regards to DCA. His viewpoint seems to be one of the most balanced and objective around here. Rather than trying to be right, he’s one of the few posters that applies a measure of logic and reason to the debate. In his attempt to extract the truth, it has become even clearer just how little the critics really know about the inner workings of Disney, and the definitive answer on how big of a success or failure DCA has been.>> I don’t know. His constant attacking of someone’s position would indicate that he thinks he is right and they are wrong. The opinions of Darkbeer, DlandDug nd others are based on some documentation, but Jonvn just seems to take the opposite position with just as limited documentation. None are able to prove their hypothesis, one way or another. So besides bringing up historical references and countering them with denials and accusations, the arguments have been unproductive. As for the truth, that’s an elusive target especially when proving it can cost someone their job. Actually, some of those critics DO know what’s going on within Disney. But, then again, how do you prove it? As berol pointed out, truth is out there. Just because you don’t know it doesn’t mean it isn’t. I don’t know if Jonvn is just defending the original DCA’s concept, it’s development or just has a certain agitation to certain attacks on the park. However, he seems to be just the opposite when addressing the “cartoonization†that the new enhancements appear to be forcing into the park. Confusing to say the least.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster I have yet to see any information from the company indicating how profitable DCA actually has been. I would imagine that it's making more money today than it did back in '01 because attendance is up but that is just pure speculation. The absence of this vital financial assessment of DCA makes impossible for all of us to know if DCA is a financial failure or not. Anyone who claims otherwise without providing documentation is delusional or lying. However, saying that DCA is a creative failure is perfectly fine since that is a subjective argument and needs no proof to support it. You can even say that DCA initially failed to live up company expectations if your argument is solely based on a few Disney executives' statements who were trying to create buzz for DCA when it was about to open. Other than those few statements Disney never went public about what it expected out of DCA. We can infer things about company decisions (No Ap's for DCA initially, etc.) but we really don't know why some decisions were made. Disney knows they underspent on DCA. They did it on purpose! They were trying a new tactic of opening theme parks: build cheap initially and build out later. Unfortunately, that plan wasn't very well suited for DLR and the park really stumbled in its first couple of years in terms of attendance. It might still have been profitable. I have no idea. The park is light on attractions and in many areas is light on theming and immersiveness. But still, the place has kind of caught on and gets good crowds on most days. With the enhancements coming it looks like WDC has realized they made some mistakes on the design of DCA and is taking steps to correct that. I really don't think this is the time for DCA haters to crow and try to use this as proof that DCA is a failure. Disney is thowing over a billion dollars at an already reasonably popular theme park to make it so much better. I think we're pretty lucky. I like DCA but I don't love it. In five years I might just love it and that prospect has me really excited.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney "its the irony of the whole situtation" <<There is no irony here, only that what you are setting up for yourself. I already explained why I respond to some of these posts.>> Man, that's the irony, everytime you respond, regardless, is what makes it funny! Man there is ZERO bitterness about it, I just find it all funny, that's all. You LIKE to debate, the fact you are debating me right NOW says it. Why is that so hard to admit lol. Hey, I admit it and in fact why I'm responding to you right now . Dude, you provided about a third of the posts here. NOTHING wrong with it, just admit your addiction. There is help out there, you can be freed.......if you really want, but if your like me, you will never want to let go, never .
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<However, saying that DCA is a creative failure is perfectly fine since that is a subjective argument and needs no proof to support it.>> EXACTLY Churromonster and most of us here are basically saying just that. We are talking primarily about poor artistic merits of the park and in TURN, which has **partly** created the underperformance of getting people in there....and apparently the Disney people agree . That 1.2 billion isn't for a REALLY good marketing campaign, its greatly to rectify the issue the park just isn't all that appealing in its astheics. They are litterally changing every single area of the park people been complaining about the park since day one. Obviously, there's something to it lol. Also, they wouldn't be changing these areas unless they thought it will increase attendance, otherwise what's the point. So, yes, from THAT standpoint, I think DCA is a BIIIIG failure and they know it! It just FINALLY took them a few years to realize the park was never going to get the attendance where they wanted it unless they stopped all the silly quick fixes and adding in some attraction every 1-2 years. It simply would keep to the status quo, which is basically get DL's leftovers for a few hours before everyone basically heads back to DL. I mean, regardless of much better the attendance has gotten, that pattern has NOT changed. I was there in August and the park was basically dead by the time the sun went down. Most of the people left seem to stay around just for the parade and all ran back to DL. The fact the park closed at 9 pm while DL closed at midnight and the place is pretty quiet around 8 pm tells you there is a big big problem there. I don't know, we all see what we want to see I agree, but basically after 6 years I see a park that still has a hard time getting people to spend half a day there and still has a reputaion that's its just not worth a full price ticket 6 years on. Obviously something has to change and with 1.2 Billion I'm praying they will be changing a lot . I'm hoping I can find a really nice sleeping bag when the bulldozers arrive. Anyone want to join me?
Originally Posted By jonvn From DL2001Fan (cute name, btw. Says a lot): "The opinions of Darkbeer, DlandDug nd others are based on some documentation" And this is why you have to counter the things these people say. Now they have "some documentation" when they in fact really have none. This is what happens. They claim something, and people start thinking they do, when they have basically nothing. "Jonvn just seems to take the opposite position with just as limited documentation" Opposite of what? What excatly is my position? Do you even know? I don't think you do, or understand it. "I don’t know if Jonvn is just defending the original DCA’s concept" I'm trying to find out information, and discuss somewhat reasonably what is going on. But I'm not interested in being lied to, or having some advocate trying to force their opinion as fact. It's not fact, and that's really offensive when they try to do that. "then again, how do you prove it?" By making reasonable statements that sound realistic, and not like some outlandish fairy tale that only an immature fanboy would think could possibly be true. "Confusing to say the least." Funny how that works. I have only explained this multiple times. I'm trying to have a rational and balanced discussion of the place. Perhaps that is beyond the understanding of some people. From ChurroMonster: "I have yet to see any information from the company indicating how profitable DCA actually has been. I" That's exactly right. No one has, and that people declare the place is this or that financially is a joke. The rest of your post is right on. I mean, the way you put it is completely reasonable and makes sense. From WorldDisney: "everytime you respond, regardless, is what makes it funny!" Glad to amuse you. The point of this board is to discuss these things. Apparently you've somehow managed to miss that small detail. I am here to do this. That is why I post here. That's the entire point. If I'm discussing this stuff, I'm going to be posting. This should not have to be explained to you. "That 1.2 billion isn't for a REALLY good marketing campaign, its greatly to rectify the issue the park just isn't all that appealing in its astheics." The problem with that thinking is that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense on its own. If the place was not doing well enough to justify it, they would not reinvest that much money. The behavior of the company indicates that what you are saying is not really wholly accurate.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "I don’t know. His constant attacking of someone’s position would indicate that he thinks he is right and they are wrong." There isn't anything inherently wrong with challenging someone's position. Especially if the position is a feeble, and an alternate conclusion appears more reasonable and sound.
Originally Posted By mstaft Couldn't have said the following better if I tried- "I could write a book (and maybe I will one day) about how and why DCA went wrong ... but I could also write a book about why and how DL will be in Anaheim in 50 years (assuming the evildoers don't destroy the planet first) largely because DCA was built to begin with." I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Doesn't mean I think DCA is awful or wonderful. It's mediocre but there ar eparts I enjoy. It has potential. And making it work is important to the Disney company for family reasons.
