Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub Maybe we could simplify Semantics and just post the TOP 10 Successes and TOP 10 Failures of DCA.
Originally Posted By inlandemporer >>The point is that Disney shelled out anywhere between $5 & $15 for each guest who watched these shows.<< Where did these figures come from? And I'm sorry, but "I heard that it was heard around the halls of WDI" doesn't count for much with me. How much per head did it "cost" DL to have the "Kids of the Kingdom" shows on the TL stage when that was free and nearly everything else was ticketed? Or the Golden Horseshoe? Or to run the fireworks? You can't just divide the cost of the show by the number of people who see it. If that's where the figures came from, it would count for even less with me. It's all part of a complex whole, figured in to the total cost of running the complex whole.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Where did these figures come from? And I'm sorry, but "I heard that it was heard around the halls of WDI" doesn't count for much with me.>> Trust me, my feelings aren't the least bit hurt if you question aectdotal evidence. I throw it out only because I worked for WDI during that period and "heard it around the halls".
Originally Posted By berol I once went to Animation Academy and was the only person in the audience. I gave them the hour off and made my exit. The expense of that show per audience member was so bad that it's undefined by mathematics!
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<How much per head did it "cost" DL to have the "Kids of the Kingdom" shows on the TL stage when that was free and nearly everything else was ticketed?>> Shows, parades and fireworks are funded from ticket sales off of the gate. Typically, for the 2000 seat venue like Hyperion Theater, shows have to guarantee X amount of seats filled to offset the cost per person that is extracted from the gate admission. It is literally a numbers game. And the theater was rarely filled anywhere near to capacity. Not expecting you to believe this one, as I absorbed it from the same hallowed halls of WDI, but as another example, Fantasma is also considered a money loser for DL because the viewing capacity is much smaller than the show was originally calculated for. What you were refering to are considered minor shows with small casts, minimal lighting and sound crews. Hyperion shows and Fantasmic are huge, expensive undertakings. To bolster Fantasma revenue for instance, there were plans to take the Adventure Land Merch stores, River Belle complex and rebuild them by adding premium rooftop viewing while offering food and beverage as well. That also died a quiet death.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 But that kind of makes the point that entertainment spectaculars have to be considered "loss leaders" or something of the sort... Fantasmic may "lose" money without more premium seating, but how many people does it bring in to begin with? And how many buy overpriced fritters and drinks to enjoy while they wait? A theme park is such a complicated enterprise, that saying something like "they lost x-dollars per head on the Hyperion Show" seems reductive to me. Perhaps by one calculation they did, but how much did they gain from the simple drink stand that costs almost nothing to operate? It's all interconnected, and without seeing the whole, it's all out of context. Even if one had all the facts and figures for DCA, it would still be out of context without all the figures for increased attendance at DLR in general and the increased room stays.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<It's all interconnected, and without seeing the whole, it's all out of context.>> In the case of Fantasmic, that is a fairly accurate statement. However, Disney had planned on operating only one Fantasmic show per night. From a public relations standpoint, that wasn't possible. As for the Hyperion, it is a stand alone venue. Nobody is running down to grab a hot dog or coke to eat in the theater.
Originally Posted By ralphjr To my knowledge, Fantasmic's success or failure was never measured by how many people purchased snacks or souvenirs in its immediate vicinity, but that it kept thousands of people from leaving Disneyland earlier in the evening, thus ensuring more revenue from added food, drink and merchandise purchases. Its benefits were seen throughout the park as families ate dinner and made other purchases that they would not have made if they didn't see a reason to stay past 6PM. It could be argued that DCA did this for the resort as a whole; it kept tourists spending with Disney, delaying their excursions to Knott's, Universal, etc. It is interesting to look at ticket promotions before DCA. Prior to the park opening, Disneyland would sell a One Day ticket to locals for about $20 off the regular price. While it could be said that they now give away DCA for "free", it only happens with a full price ticket, so essentially they're now getting $20 more than they were before DCA. (Plus another day of food, merchandise, etc. purchases.) For tourists, Disneyland used to offer the "5 Days for the Price of 3 Day" Flex Pass, which was giving them 2 Free days in the park. While Disney has offered discounted Park Hoppers since DCA's opening, nothing has reached the discount of the Flex Passes. (Granted, the Flex Passes were probably used mostly as evening passes on days when the tourists primarily spent the day at another attraction.) I guess I don't really have a point, but it is interesting to note what they were doing to fill the park before and after DCA opened. While they obviously weren't anticipating having to do the discounts they had to do so far, overall they appear to be able to run less generous discounting than before now that they have a second gate.
Originally Posted By danyoung There's another element to shows like F! that I don't think anyone has covered. Having shows like that make the park itself much more attractive, and easier for the avid park goer to spend the money for a longer stay or an AP. Again, it's not just about the money spent during the event. It's about the park's value as a whole. Live entertainment and fireworks spectaculars have always been a huge draw to the Disney parks, but very hard to put a per capita value on.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<<<It's all interconnected, and without seeing the whole, it's all out of context.>> <In the case of Fantasmic, that is a fairly accurate statement. However, Disney had planned on operating only one Fantasmic show per night. From a public relations standpoint, that wasn't possible. As for the Hyperion, it is a stand alone venue. Nobody is running down to grab a hot dog or coke to eat in the theater.> I didn't really mean seeing the whole just in terms of food consumed while watching (though that's an obvious one). I meant seeing the WHOLE whole. i.e... <Again, it's not just about the money spent during the event. It's about the park's value as a whole. Live entertainment and fireworks spectaculars have always been a huge draw to the Disney parks, but very hard to put a per capita value on.> Exactly.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Exactly.>> It is a cost that they have been willing to absorb, they just wish that one show per night would have been sufficient. And with a larger viewing venue, that would have been the case.
Originally Posted By danyoung Are we still talking about Fantasmic!? How could you have a larger viewing venue than the Rivers of America? Don't they pack in 10,000 per night there? Did the original plan call for more people to pack in to that space?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "It is interesting to look at ticket promotions before DCA. Prior to the park opening, Disneyland would sell a One Day ticket to locals for about $20 off the regular price. While it could be said that they now give away DCA for "free", it only happens with a full price ticket, so essentially they're now getting $20 more than they were before DCA. (Plus another day of food, merchandise, etc. purchases.)" Thank you for making this point better than I did.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Don't they pack in 10,000 per night there?>> What's the cost per showing of Disneyland's Fantasmic?
Originally Posted By FerretAfros <<Don't they pack in 10,000 per night there?>> I believe that the theoretical capacity is about 9,000, but they really can only fit about 6,000-6,500 people there. I don't really know what the cost per show (and therefore cost per guest) is, but I read online many years ago that it was about $10,000 (though my memory and accuracy of that website can be debated). >>It is a cost that they have been willing to absorb, they just wish that one show per night would have been sufficient.<< Really? It seems like it's cheaper per show on nights where they have several showings. Regardless of having one, two, or three shows, they need to pay the show's cast, crew, and army of crowd control CMs for a shift. Yes, they also have to pay for more pyro and fuel for additional shows, but that additional cost is minimal, when compared to the labor involved. If everybody is already there for one show (and there are enough guests around), why not run a second? I think the occasional third show requires extending shifts some, but it's still much cheaper to add a 3rd show than to do the first one.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Just doing some quick math in my head, the $10,000 figure just doesn't make any sense. I don't know what it actually is, but it should be higher than that.
Originally Posted By 9oldmen >>Management would be beyond irresponsible to invest other people's money (the stockholders) to the tune of $1.2 billion in something that had already proven to be a bust.<< It would have been irresponsible to have left the park in the condition that it was. Also, they're not investing in something that was a total bust: they're investing in something that, historically has been the most succesful aspect of the company, (one of) their theme parks.
Originally Posted By crapshoot Checking out the internet, I find that the info on cost per showing of Fantasma runs anywhere from $22,000 to $33,000 and up. And I imagine that's fairly old data. Assuming an average is at $28,000 per showing is probably not unreasonable. Then taking a high guest number of 10,000 and a low of 6,000 gets us about 8,000 guests per showing on average. That equals approx. $3.50 per guest. Take the nightly fireworks which is around $60,000 and a good night with 50,000 guests equals $1.20 per guest viewing, give or take. Run two Fantasmic shows in one night and that pretty much equals the cost of one fireworks show. It works out that 50,000 guests watch one showing of Fireworks, 16,000 guests watch two showings of Fantasmic. To summarize: The cost per guest for Fantasmic is around $3.50 while for Fireworks is around $1.20 which is very close to three times greater. That is the main reason why Fantasmic is not run all year long, but Fireworks are.
Originally Posted By CuriousConstance ""It is interesting to look at ticket promotions before DCA. Prior to the park opening, Disneyland would sell a One Day ticket to locals for about $20 off the regular price. While it could be said that they now give away DCA for "free", it only happens with a full price ticket, so essentially they're now getting $20 more than they were before DCA. (Plus another day of food, merchandise, etc. purchases.)"" I was also thinking this along the lines that the 2fer deal did not indicate that DCA was a FAILURE. It probably indicates it was under performing, sure. But not a failure. You can go online to disneyland.com and get a 1 day one park ticket for $80. If you can a five day, one park per day ticket for $231. Extra days are always drastically cheapter, and even giving a day "for free" they would still be making money on it.
